The 'House of the Dragon' showrunner unpacks Ormund's fate, Daeron's much-debated hair, and the 'scrutiny' he expects for the series finale

Warning: Major spoilers up for "House of the Dragon" play three.

As play 3 of "House of the Dragon" comes to a adjacent pinch characteristic occurrence and blood, showrunner Ryan Condal is already anticipating scrutiny of the adjacent one.

In an question and reply up of Sunday's play 3 finale, Condal confirmed that HBO's tentpole "Game of Thrones" spinoff will extremity pinch its 4th season. As Condal and his squad representation retired a last eight-episode arc for the Targaryen dragonlords embroiled successful a civilian war, the franchise's history and its fiercely devoted fans loom large.

"It's difficult capable to make a play finale," Condal told Business Insider. "Try making a bid finale that tries to beryllium each things to each people, and besides person a chopped constituent of position and point to opportunity and spot to time off disconnected each the characters."

Based connected George R. R. Martin's fantasy book "Fire & Blood," "House of the Dragon" follows the dynastic struggle betwixt Rhaenyra Targaryen (Emma D'Arcy) and her younger half-brother, Aegon II (Tom Glynn-Carney), which yet devastates the royal family and decimates the dragon population.

In the play 3 finale, Queen Rhaenyra descends further into tyranny and messianic delusions, while Aegon II rises from the literal ashes pinch a resurrected dragon and a crippled to retake the Iron Throne. Elsewhere, Rhaenyra's Hightower enemies and loyal friends alike are massacred successful the big-budget, game-changing Battle of Tumbleton; a dangerous dragonrider deserts her cause; and a beloved erstwhile queen plummets to her death.

With plentifulness to unpack (and moreover much decease and demolition to expect successful play four), Business Insider caught up pinch Condal to talk play three's biggest scenes, cardinal themes, and the 1 characteristic he recovered particularly difficult to kill.

On executing the Battle of Tumbleton and expanding Ormund's characteristic for the screen

Aside from the Battle of the Gullet, were location immoderate scenes from the book that were other challenging aliases labor-intensive to bring to life?

Ryan Condal: The 2 this play decidedly were the premiere and the finale — the 2 mega-battles. Each was its ain situation successful its ain right. But those were decidedly the 2 that sewage the astir attraction successful position of planning, consternation, resources, anguish, despair, each that, and past hopefully triumph astatine the end.

What were the peculiar challenges of filming the Tumbleton battle?

Unlike the Gullet, which was an engineering situation of, "How the hellhole are we really going to do this?" this was much of, "What tin the schedule and the fund sorb successful position of the ambitions of the script?" So that was much of a classical speech betwixt imaginative ambition and what is really applicable and tin happen, while holding onto the subjective constituent of the storytelling — meaning each of the POVs of the characters that we're pinch down location connected the crushed successful Tumbleton.

One of the things I'm proudest of is really we were capable to bring truthful galore POVs that we've been pursuing crossed the play each together successful this 1 place, and past blend them successful a measurement that felt earned and organic: Black and Green coming together and interacting pinch each different successful a measurement that was paying disconnected these 8 episode-long arcs that we had been exploring crossed play three.

A large portion of that communicative payoff is watching Ormund Hightower get his comeuppance. In the book, he doesn't get overmuch characterization beyond being a subject leader. Tell maine astir expanding his characteristic for the show and giving him truthful overmuch texture — the belief fanaticism, the smell sensitivity, each these details.

That's the awesome nosy of an adjustment of a book for illustration "Fire & Blood." Because truthful overmuch of it is simply a sketch, peculiarly successful the characteristic realm, conscionable because you're not wrong the characters' heads the measurement you are successful the "A Song of Ice and Fire" novels.

Those are each written successful POV, whereas this book is written — it's an anti-POV. It's written successful the POV of these 3 historians who are benignant of arguing complete what happened erstwhile to whom, and complete whose relationship ends up being the much meticulous account. So you conscionable don't get the soul thoughts of these characters, which creates a ton of latitude to beryllium imaginative and create, and to grant the book.

Ormund, we know, is simply a awesome subject leader. He led the Hightower host. He was pinch Daeron the Daring, and he planned and tried to triumph valiantly successful this very epic, table-turning Battle of Tumbleton, and past yet came up short successful the end.

So we knew each of that, and past we were very free to creation a characteristic astir him. And it really opened america up to being capable to spell successful and do thing really absorbing and "Thrones"-y, I think, successful a way, wherever he's flawed and analyzable and this maestro usability who has 2 halfway weaknesses — 1 being thing he can't help, which is his oversensitivity to smell and texture and each that, and past 2 being his rage issues, which possibly is thing that he could do thing astir pinch a small therapy and activity work.

I emotion the throughline that originates chronologically pinch Ormund, reappears successful "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms," and past pays disconnected astatine the opening of "Game of Thrones," which is this anti-Targaryen, anti-dragon suspicion breeding among the group of the realm. Did you see this taxable while penning his character?

Yes, very much. It was benignant of built into who Ormund was.

This is simply a taxable that we've group up that you're going to spot continuing to play retired complete the last chapter, the last acts of our show — this thought of the Faith.

Essentially, astir of the realm holds to the Faith. It's the Catholicism of this era. And past you person the Targaryens, who travel successful arsenic this pagan race, who judge successful humor magic and occurrence and their ain godlike supremacy. Their gods are gigantic atomic lizards that you tin smell, touch, see, and hear.

I loved what Ira [Parker] did pinch that very subtly successful "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms," because moreover though we didn't really talk astir it, it was intelligibly successful the ether — this thought that the Targaryens were, by a batch of people, looked connected pinch fearfulness and suspicion because of their outsize power. And their alienness, their otherness, the measurement that they wed amongst themselves, and they don't clasp to the traditions that everybody other holds to — traditions and morals that everybody other successful the realm holds to. So location is simply a earthy disagreement there.

On the 'natural parallels' betwixt Rhaenyra and Daenerys

I noticed a parallel betwixt the reside Rhaenyra gives astatine the Sept and the last reside Daenerys gives successful the past play of "Game of Thrones," erstwhile she feels she's fulfilling her purpose, but successful reality, she's doomed. Was that intentional?

We're surely alert of it. I deliberation it's important that the show has echoes of the original bid successful it, successful immoderate ways, truthful that they stay connected. Because they are very overmuch connected.

This is the logic that Daenerys is begging for a crown crossed the Narrow Sea, and the dragons are each dead. Because of this story. So I deliberation those connections are important to make to punctual group that these 2 periods successful history are intimately connected pinch 1 another.

Daenerys and Rhaenyra find themselves connected parallel tracks, successful a way, arsenic dragon queens that are trying to found their ain legitimacy and their destination to beryllium connected the throne; location are going to beryllium earthy parallels that look successful those stories.

I besides noticed echoes of Daenerys burning King's Landing successful the segment of Ulf burning Tumbleton. They're some the humor of the dragon, of course, pinch that fiery temper — but pinch Ulf, we get a batch much discourse and buildup for that decision. Did that hap to you while adapting Ulf's turn, aliases did it motivate you to springiness him much characteristic improvement up of that scene?

I deliberation the measurement it each came together, and acknowledgment to Tom Bennett's unthinkable performance, it feels for illustration a really, really subtly drawn and really earned arc that — moreover though it's tragic and horrifying — feels wholly earned successful the end.

Ulf is not a awesome personification pinch a precocious civilized character, but he was besides conscionable different feline who was enjoying his clip astatine the pub until the Targaryens drew him into a world he was not prepared to beryllium in, and past sat him connected a atomic limb and said, "Go triumph this warfare for us" — and promised him each these things they ne'er delivered.

So successful a way, everybody connected each sides — Rhaenyra, Daemon, surely Ormund, the feudal building of the governmental strategy successful this peculiar clip and era — are each responsible for Ulf arsenic overmuch arsenic Ulf is responsible for Ulf. I deliberation it's a awesome payoff for that characteristic complete his two-season arc to bring america to this point. And I deliberation it's, again, horrifying, but wholly credible.

On Helaena's death, Aegon's underdog arc, and Daeron's narration pinch Alicent

Which decease did you find astir gutting to constitute aliases movie this season?

It was Helaena. I emotion Phia Saban truthful overmuch arsenic a personification that she's conscionable specified a joyousness and a beingness to person astir set. And look, I really emotion my cast. I'm very fortunate to activity pinch each of them. But there's conscionable thing astir Phia and the characteristic that she plays that's truthful delightful and innocent.

It's almost for illustration she's a characteristic from a different imagination communicative that's been trapped wrong this one. Helaena had nary ambitions extracurricular of conscionable raising her chickens and collecting her bugs and noting the earthy world — to person her besides dragged down into the abyss that is the Game of Thrones was really, really, really tragic and difficult to watch and difficult to dramatize, and past difficult to spot being dramatized for each those reasons.

And I'm conscionable really sad to opportunity goodbye to her, conscionable because we adore her and having her around.

Over the people of the series, which actor's capacity has amazed you the most, aliases differed the astir from really you primitively envisioned their characteristic coming live onscreen?

There's truthful many. God, it's truthful hard. I wish I could do an question and reply connected everybody.

I'm truthful impressed pinch Tom Glynn-Carney crossed this season, because for comparatively small surface time, he plays this very, very cardinal domiciled successful the season, and did specified an unthinkable occupation successful trading this arc of personification that we find successful the throes of opium withdrawal. And past astatine the end, you're rooting for him to get his dragon backmost and past spell situation the main characteristic of the show for the throne pinch his brother. Batman and Robin get backmost together astatine the end.

I conscionable consciousness for illustration the measurement that Tom sold that — and the feedback that I've gotten from group watching the show, like, "I didn't deliberation you could do it, but I'm rooting for Aegon now" — is specified a compliment to, I think, the storytelling, but besides that's a in installments to Tom's unthinkable capacity crossed the season.

I want to inquire you astir the instrumentality mentation that Ormund was dyeing Daeron's hairsbreadth truthful that he resembles a Hightower much than a Targaryen. Is location weight to that?

I don't want to opportunity thing definitively. I deliberation it's a very absorbing discussion. Daeron's hairsbreadth color took up astir apt much chat than immoderate azygous character's hairsbreadth colour did successful the full making of the show.

I conscionable deliberation it poses a batch of absorbing questions. If you presume that that is really Daeron's hairsbreadth colour — and that he's the 1 that conscionable looked precisely for illustration his mother — the mobility that was astir absorbing to maine was, "Oh my God, is that why Alicent sent him away?" In a clip erstwhile she was truthful successful request of coating the image of the cleanable blonde Targaryen family, being capable to guidelines connected her soapbox and opportunity that Rhaenyra's children are plain and illegitimate, and that they're not trueborn pinch Laenor, and they're unsuited to return the throne: "Look astatine my cleanable Targaryen children that I sacrificed truthful overmuch to person pinch a man who's 25 years older than me, who's virtually rotting to pieces."

It calls backmost to a past shape of Alicent that's very different from the Alicent that we cognize today.

Also, if we presume that to beryllium true, we would spot her almost rewriting history successful existent clip — telling Rhaenyra that she sent Daeron distant to protect him, and convincing herself of that.

So overmuch of representation is emotion, right? It's an affectional memory. It's not the representation of really what happened. It's your representation of the emotion that you knowledgeable astatine the time. And I tin wholly spot Alicent really believing a different type of that story, now that she's been done each of these horrors and tragedies.

On the 'scrutiny' he expects for the bid finale and the unit of 'landing the plane'

With a communicative for illustration this, presented successful the book arsenic a retrospective history, location are respective imaginable endpoints. There's Rhaenyra's decease aliases Aegon's death, but moreover then, the realm isn't precisely astatine peace. How do you attack the last play of "House of the Dragon" arsenic a showrunner looking to trade a satisfying arc successful a constricted number of episodes?

It would beryllium an understatement to opportunity that ending a gigantic genre show comes pinch scrutiny astir it.

We've talked astir this being benignant of a World War II movie: There are plentifulness of World War II movies that beryllium wherever you show the communicative wrong this greater war, but the curtain drops astatine immoderate constituent successful the story, and it's not needfully pinch Japan's surrender aliases Hitler dying successful the bunker — these large benignant of endpoints wherever you could opportunity World War II genuinely ended. You're telling the communicative wrong the story.

So, successful nary measurement to remark astatine each connected really we're readying connected ending this, but I deliberation that was the trick. Because "Fire & Blood" is simply a decades-spanning history, the mobility is really more, "Where do you driblet the curtain connected this peculiar story?"

We're telling the communicative of the Dance of the Dragons — Rhaenyra's, Daemon's, Alicent's, Aegon's, Aemond's, Helaena's story. At what constituent do you driblet the curtain connected this, [in a way] that feels satisfying and for illustration you've told a complete story, but besides that leaves definite things open-ended? Telling the audience, intentionally, that history marches on. We cognize that the Targaryens unrecorded connected and norm connected from here, for many, galore years, earlier they're yet deposed successful Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark's uprising.

As you scheme adjacent season's arc, what feels astir daunting to you astir tackling the adjacent shape of this story?

I deliberation it's landing the plane, honestly. It's a very difficult point to do.

We've seen a batch of large bid travel to an extremity complete the past fewer years. You person to do work to the series, the communicative that you've been telling connected a imaginative level — but also, you person each these fans that are watching this, whether they're book readers aliases not, that are tremendously invested successful the point that you've made, and they've travel to cognize and emotion these characters, aliases emotion reviling these characters. Whatever the lawsuit whitethorn be, they've spent a batch of clip successful this.

There is simply a struggle to opportunity goodbye. And I deliberation that's wherever a batch of the debate, aliases immoderate it is, comes into the picture, because I deliberation a batch of group conscionable simply don't want it to end, and they each person their ideas of really it should, aliases what a satisfying ending is.

So I deliberation for us, it's really, really do we return these 8 hours that we person near — 8 chapters that we person near — and show a compelling, satisfying communicative that ties up arsenic galore of the threads arsenic we're capable to, but besides leaves pinch benignant of wistful open-endedness astatine the extremity of it to make you yearn for more, successful a bully way? That's the point we're aiming for.

I ever opportunity the hardest point astir making a show for illustration this is the first play and past the past episode, because wrapping it up, you're going to beryllium judged connected really you time off the thing.

I hide who said this, I'm conscionable paraphrasing, but the champion endings are wholly inevitable, but wholly surprising. And that's the golden modular that we're striving for.

This question and reply has been condensed and edited for magnitude and clarity.

"House of the Dragon" play 3 is streaming successful afloat connected HBO Max.