'The Nerd Reich' tracks the 'unmasking of Silicon Valley's true politics'

Aug 24, 2026 02:35 AM - 2 hours ago 3

Transcript

TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. For 20 years, Silicon Valley's unofficial motto has been to move accelerated and break things - the breaking, the value of progress. But my impermanent coming says what's being surgery correct now is American democracy. In his caller book, journalist Gil Duran argues that a mini circle of Silicon Valley billionaires and the task capitalists who money them person concluded that populist is successful their measurement and that they should beryllium governing successful its place. As the outgoing president, Joe Biden gave a akin informing against what he called the emergence of a tech business complex.

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JOE BIDEN: Americans are being buried nether an avalanche of misinformation and disinformation, enabling the maltreatment of power. The free property is crumbling. Editors are disappearing. Social media is giving up connected fact-checking. The truth is smothered by lies told for powerfulness and for profit. We must clasp the societal platforms accountable to protect our children, our families and our very populist from the maltreatment of power. Meanwhile, artificial intelligence is the astir consequential exertion of our time, possibly of each time. Nothing offers much profound possibilities and risks for our system and our security, our nine for very - for humanity. Artificial intelligence moreover has the imaginable to thief america reply my telephone to extremity crab arsenic we cognize it. But unless safeguards are successful place, AI could spawn caller threats to our rights, our measurement of life, to our privacy, really we activity and really we protect our nation.

MOSLEY: Five days aft that speech, astatine President Trump's inauguration, successful the seats closest to the president, the ones usually reserved for family and erstwhile presidents, sat immoderate of the astir powerful men successful tech - Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg and Sundar Pichai. And later that day, Musk stood down the statesmanlike seal and made a motion overmuch of the world publication arsenic a Nazi salute.

Duran's caller book, "The Nerd Reich: Silicon Valley Fascism And The War On Democracy," argues that the men down the president that time were not location to observe him. Their beingness was impervious that 30 years of patient, well-funded activity had yet paid off. He writes that immoderate of them were inspired by a 1997 book called "The Sovereign Individual," which predicted integer money would dissolve countries, and pinch a blogger named Curtis Yarvin, who based on America should beryllium tally for illustration a corporation, by a CEO pinch the powers of a dictator.

Gil Duran began his profession astatine the San Jose Mercury News, past spent 15 years successful California politics, moving pinch Dianne Feinstein, Jerry Brown and Kamala Harris. He returned to publicity successful 2018, moving the sentiment pages astatine the Sacramento Bee and the San Francisco Examiner. He now writes the newsletter The Nerd Reich. Gil, invited to FRESH AIR.

GIL DURAN: Thanks for having me.

MOSLEY: There was a clip erstwhile a book for illustration this, arguing that tech billionaires are unmasking themselves, and they person this scheme to extremity American populist and switch it pinch things for illustration firm city-states, it would person been shelved arsenic a bunch of different conspiracy theories. But a batch of what you constitute about, you didn't person to uncover, you didn't person to unmask. You built the lawsuit retired of their ain writings and speeches and interviews because fundamentally they person been stating their beliefs and aspirations retired large for years.

DURAN: I deliberation we were witnessing the unmasking of Silicon Valley's existent politics. They yet were comfortable to uncover their afloat selves to everyone. And I deliberation for galore years, their antiauthoritarian alignment was mostly self-interest because we had antiauthoritarian presidents who had important contracts, authorities contracts, who had power. And truthful they needed to get on pinch whoever had power. And now that Trump was returning to power, they saw an opportunity to align pinch him and to effort to realign the country's authorities to thing much to their liking. I deliberation it's grown quietly, arsenic we've seen galore of these group go billionaires and multibillionaires and moreover 1 temporarily go a trillionaire.

Once you person group who person truthful overmuch wealthiness amassed, past they want power. But for immoderate group successful Silicon Valley, specifically Peter Thiel, this thought of utilizing exertion to amass wealthiness and past move that into monopolistic governmental powerfulness is thing that was not accidental. It was thing that was cautiously cultivated complete galore decades. And arsenic you said, nary of my book came from concealed documents, aliases it's not guessing. This is worldly that these guys person been saying connected the grounds very explicitly for decades.

MOSLEY: OK, let's break this down a small spot much because, I mean, astir group mightiness presume that if populist breaks nether each of this tech money and power, it's collateral harm because these are rich | men chasing profit, and the state suffers on the way. Part of - a large portion of what you are besides arguing is the other of that, that the breaking really is the goal.

DURAN: Definitely. My book is astir a cult of Silicon Valley billionaires who judge that successful the 21st century, exertion will make populist obsolete. And it goes backmost a fewer decades. In 1997, if you want to cognize the afloat guidelines of it, location was a book that came retired called "The Sovereign Individual" that predicted that successful the 21st century, exertion would consequence successful the extremity of populist and federation states for illustration the United States. Specifically, the book said that 2 technologies - one, thing called cybercurrency, which we would coming see crypto, and different called precocious automation, which is fundamentally AI - would illness the system and thereby the authorities itself and would lead to the emergence of a caller cognitive elite, these sovereign individuals, able individuals who, by making the correct investments and the correct moves, would beryllium capable to profit from the demolition of the United States and different antiauthoritarian federation states.

And the book was very poorly reviewed and sounded for illustration a conspiracy kook book to astir people, but it had specified a profound effect connected Peter Thiel that he has credited for being 1 of the reasons why he started PayPal, arsenic an effort to get up of this predicted cybercurrency that would toggle shape authorities successful the 21st century.

MOSLEY: Right. Peter Thiel publication it. He grabbed onto it. He, arsenic you mentioned, is the co-founder of PayPal and Palantir, and he's a awesome funder of Facebook, which made him a billionaire. You know, successful particular, erstwhile we talk astir Thiel successful the past, it has ever been that immoderate of his ideas astir populist and authorities were unusual and fringe. He'd written, among different things, that he nary longer believed state and populist were compatible. And portion of what you're saying present is this book, "The Sovereign Individual," had a immense effect connected his belief system. But really did that shape his desires and aspirations?

DURAN: Well, successful the decades aft "The Sovereign Individual" was published, you spot Thiel proceed to make moves that are intelligibly based connected the book. But, of course, you person to cognize the book successful bid to cognize that, and astir group were not acquainted pinch the book because while it became a cult deed successful Silicon Valley later, astatine the time, it was benignant of an obscure book that galore reviewers dismissed arsenic kooky conspiracy theory, apocalyptic. Yeah, right, the United States is going to beryllium collapsing connected the 21st century. This seemed for illustration a joke backmost successful the bully aged days of 1997. But successful the consequent years, Thiel goes connected to springiness speeches and constitute essays wherever he talks astir the emergence of a integer rate that's coming and past will subvert everything and cannot beryllium stopped by Washington, which will person zero thought of what it's really about.

In 2010, he gives a reside wherever he says that authorities is fundamentally evil. And this is weird because astatine the time, he's a cofounder of Palantir, which was started pinch finance from the CIA and which is simply a awesome authorities contractor. So you usually don't spot authorities contractors calling the authorities fundamentally evil successful nationalist forums. And he goes connected to go personification who spreads these ideas to different important figures successful Silicon Valley, for illustration Marc Andreessen, for illustration Brian Armstrong of Coinbase. And successful his book "Zero To One," which is astir startups and really to win successful Silicon Valley and business, Peter Thiel says it's important to commencement a business that runs for illustration a cult because cults are organizations of full dedication, wherever group attraction astir them much than thing else, and this is the measurement to really get things done, is to commencement your ain cult.

And I would opportunity that what Peter Thiel was capable to do is return his fringe liking successful these ideas and benignant of commencement a cult wherever he dispersed them to different important group who are now mostly billionaires and who are pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into our predetermination and are aligned down Trump. And if you look astatine what Trump is doing, a batch of the ideas that he's pursuing are ideas that were first thought of and promoted by Peter Thiel and these billionaires.

MOSLEY: Thiel's protege is the vice president, JD Vance. His surveillance company, arsenic you said, holds the ICE contract. Sixteen of his group activity wrong the administration. So this has gone beyond a cult wrong Silicon Valley, and now it touches government. With JD Vance successful particular, you constitute that he is fundamentally Thiel's investment. He helped Vance get his first occupation successful tech, his conversion to Catholicism, he funded his Senate seat. Walk america done really that narration carried Vance to the White House.

DURAN: Vance first met Thiel astatine Yale Law School successful 2011 erstwhile Thiel gave a reside there, and Thiel invited him to travel retired to California someday. In a - wrong a mates of years, Vance is successful Silicon Valley, moving for a task superior money that was cofounded by Thiel. Then, erstwhile Vance goes backmost to Ohio, decides to commencement his ain task fund, it's pinch money from Peter Thiel, Marc Andreessen and others. When Vance decides to tally for Senate, it's pinch $15 cardinal from Peter Thiel, which was the astir money immoderate azygous individual had ever spent to get personification elected to the U.S. Senate. And erstwhile Vance was being considered for vice president, it was Thiel who made the bid betwixt Vance and Trump because Vance had previously, erstwhile he was anti-Trump, referred to Trump arsenic America's Hitler.

So astatine each measurement of the way, it's Peter Thiel who's clearing the measurement for JD Vance, who, aft being an anti-Trump Republican, goes connected to go a full-throated Trump protagonist and pro-Trump onslaught dog, and who, during his Senate campaign, was quoting Curtis Yarvin, this tech fascist philosopher who has openly stated that the United States needs to get free of populist and switch it pinch a monarch - a king aliases a dictator.

And truthful you spot the full effect of Peter Thiel successful wholly shifting Vance's governmental identity. And it's shocking that truthful quickly Vance sewage into the White House. And that's erstwhile I thought, this is really going beyond what I thought it would. When I started looking astatine this worldly a fewer years ago, I knew it was dangerous, but I didn't deliberation it would beryllium a threat to the state until 5 aliases 10 years from now. When Vance sewage connected the ticket, it became clear these ideas are going straight into the White House. And what was shocking to maine is that very fewer group mentioned the Thiel narration - the extent of the Thiel narration - aliases the extremism of the ideas down it.

MOSLEY: If you're conscionable joining us, my impermanent is journalist and writer Gil Duran. His caller book is called "The Nerd Reich: Silicon Valley Fascism And The War On Democracy." We'll beryllium backmost aft a break. This is FRESH AIR.

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MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR, and today, my impermanent is journalist Gil Duran. His caller book is "The Nerd Reich: Silicon Valley Fascism And The War On Democracy."

Now I want to talk astir 1 of the different men you constitute astir - Balaji Srinivasan. He's a task capitalist who writes, among different things, astir replacing countries pinch privately-owned startup societies, which we'll talk astir astatine magnitude a small later. But Srinivasan, successful 2023, goes connected a podcast and describes really tech is taking complete San Francisco. You reported that retired and the portion went viral. And there's thing very circumstantial that he talked astir regarding strategy, pinch the reddish and the blues and past the grays that he describes the tech world as. Can you explicate that?

DURAN: Certainly. So Balaji Srinivasan is simply a protege of Peter Thiel who was turned connected to the book "The Sovereign Individual" by Peter Thiel and considers it prescient - an important archive that tells america wherever we're going. And successful 2013, he gave a reside successful which he said that tech needed to secede, essentially, from the United States. That it was clip for Silicon Valley to move retired of this country, get distant from populist and create its ain caller governmental systems, which raised immoderate eyebrows astatine the time, but benignant of seemed, I think, silly and eccentric to astir people. Not for illustration a - it wasn't a superior idea. It wasn't taken seriously, astatine least.

By 2023, Srinivasan had updated his thought to a caller governmental strategy by which thing called the grey tribe, which he defined arsenic the tech group successful politics, who were a rising unit successful U.S. authorities - the CEOs, the founders, the billionaires - would shape this tech grey tribe, and this grey people would partner pinch the reddish people - the Republicans - to fundamentally oust and purge the bluish people - the Democrats - from the metropolis of San Francisco. He was utilizing San Francisco arsenic a trial case. And this thought of the reds and the grays teaming up against the blues very overmuch seems to beryllium the strategy that's being pursued successful Silicon Valley. In fact, successful 2024, location was a convention successful San Francisco wherever - location was a convention wherever it was fundamentally The Heritage Foundation - the right-wing Heritage Foundation - and the task capitalists of San Francisco gathering to comparison notes and stock the stage. And the title of the convention was Reboot: The New Reality.

And the website for this convention said, the caller reality is already here, it's conscionable not visible yet, and fundamentally based on that tech was waking up to authorities and we were astir to spot this caller powerfulness unleashed. And that caller reality ended up being very overmuch what Srinivasan spelled retired - combining down the Trump management to create an unprecedented disruption and onslaught connected American democracy.

MOSLEY: And what Trump is getting retired of it is to beryllium funded. So much power. But I'm conscionable - what do you cognize astir his narration pinch immoderate of these powerful guys, specifically the men that you constitute about, which travel to beryllium around, like, six aliases truthful men who clasp an bonzer magnitude of powerfulness done their wealth?

DURAN: The measurement to understand Trump's narration pinch Silicon Valley is done crypto. Trump utilized to dislike crypto. He called crypto a scam. And...

MOSLEY: Yeah. Right.

DURAN: He fundamentally said that it wasn't a existent rate - only the dollar is existent currency. He was the No. 1 hater of crypto erstwhile he was president the first time. And connected the time he returned to the White House successful 2025, he became a crypto billionaire because billions of dollars are being funneled to the Trump family and his - into their coffers done crypto. And crypto fundamentally is simply a limb of wide corruption. It's a measurement that Silicon Valley tin chimney monolithic amounts of money into the governmental system. And for immoderate reason, the corruption is truthful monolithic that it's moreover difficult for group to explain. The Trump family has amassed billions done crypto, and it's normal. It's conscionable go business arsenic accustomed now successful Washington.

MOSLEY: You know, erstwhile you reported astir the reds and the grays, and the usage of the reds to summation powerfulness for the grays, what you reported went viral. And Srinivasan really came aft you. And that's erstwhile personification wrong the crypto world really sent you a connection that gave you the title of this book, because it is simply a provocative book, utilizing reich successful the title.

DURAN: Yes. People springiness maine in installments for the title, "The Nerd Reich." But I did not travel up pinch that. It was aft I wrote astir Srinivasan and it went viral and I was nether onslaught for respective days pinch group threatening maine pinch lawsuits, claiming I had made the full communicative up, moreover though everything was hyperlinked - you could spell spot the videos for yourself. And immoderate group moreover sending scarier threats than that. Someone from the crypto world reached retired to maine successful a nonstop connection and said, you know, we've been calling these guys the Nerd Reich for years.

And that was astonishing to me. It was shocking. And I looked, and nary 1 was utilizing that title for anything. So I grabbed it and rebranded arsenic "The Nerd Reich." But I deliberation it's important to statement that this is not a sanction I came up with. This is their ain peers. These are group who mostly work together pinch them connected matters of technology, and moreover connected immoderate governmental stuff, but considered them truthful utmost and hard-edged that they were comparing them to the Third Reich via the sanction the Nerd Reich.

MOSLEY: What's it been for illustration for you? You know, successful reference this book, it's really clear to me. You've got, like, tons of footnotes present and sources here, different media sources - these guys' ain writings and their interviews and speeches - and backstage folks that person talked to you that want to stay anonymous. What person your efforts been for illustration to talk to these guys directly, peculiarly Thiel, Srinivasan?

DURAN: I put successful question and reply requests to each of them. And astir of them did not reply, isolated from Yarvin did reply. He wouldn't springiness maine an interview, but we went backmost and forth, and he wrote maine many, galore agelong emails, immoderate of them flattering, immoderate of them insulting, attempting to tie maine into immoderate benignant of nationalist statement alternatively of an interview. Finally, he realized that each the emails were the question and reply and stopped writing. But they mostly don't want to talk astir this stuff.

I deliberation their extremity is to dream that group don't publication this book, that it conscionable benignant of fades distant and cipher cares, nobody's willing successful this deeper communicative of what's happening pinch Silicon Valley. But truthful acold complete the past year, it seems for illustration group are really tuning into what's happening. And group are looking for answers of, why has Silicon Valley aligned pinch Trump? Why does this each look truthful extreme? Why aren't location immoderate billionaires opinionated up and saying, hey, this worldly is incorrect - the president shouldn't beryllium raking successful crypto wealthiness and destroying the Constitution? I don't deliberation their strategy of soundlessness is going to past for long. I deliberation they're going to person to reply for immoderate of these things.

MOSLEY: Our impermanent coming is journalist Gil Duran. After a short break, we'll perceive much astir the blogger Curtis Yarvin. I'm Tonya Mosley, and this is FRESH AIR.

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MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley, and my impermanent coming is journalist Gil Duran. His caller book, "The Nerd Reich: Silicon Valley Fascism And The War On Democracy," makes the lawsuit that a mini circle of Silicon Valley billionaires has travel to spot populist arsenic an obstacle and has spent the past 30 years building the statement and the machinery to get astir it. Duran is simply a erstwhile newspaper newsman who spent 15 years moving successful antiauthoritarian authorities pinch Dianne Feinstein, Jerry Brown and Kamala Harris earlier returning to journalism. He now writes the newsletter "The Nerd Reich."

I conscionable want to walk conscionable a small spot of clip connected Curtis Yarvin. He was a blogger. It was, like, the 2000s - right? - wherever he began penning nether a pen name. And he was arguing moreover backmost then, that populist had failed, that America should beryllium tally by a CEO who is fundamentally a dictator and that the full national workforce should beryllium fired. And for years, the only group who really publication him were benignant of successful definite corners of the internet. So really did he and Thiel find each other?

DURAN: In April 2009, Peter Thiel wrote an effort successful which he said he nary longer believed that state and populist were compatible and suggested that women and different group getting the correct to ballot marked the extremity of state being a point you tin person pinch democracy. At least, of course, arsenic we tin spot for achromatic men, he was talking about. Well, this caused a batch of outcry and disapproval of Thiel, who had to spell backmost and say, I didn't mean to opportunity - I'm not saying that women shouldn't person the vote, etc.

But 1 of the group who publically defended Peter Thiel astatine that clip was Curtis Yarvin, who was penning astatine the clip nether the sanction of Mencius Moldbug. And sometime aft Yarvin's nationalist defense of Thiel, the 2 met. And Thiel becomes an important promoter and funder of Yarvin's work, which is very different because Curtis Yarvin is this machine programmer, and he writes these anonymous blogs wherever he calls fundamentally for the extremity of the United States and the extremity of populist and the installation of a monarch aliases a dictator and the purging of the national authorities nether a early administration, wherever a president would enactment arsenic an authoritarian.

And nary 1 should person ever heard of Curtis Yarvin's name. But done Thiel, he meets group for illustration Marc Andreessen, who helps money his company. He has this institution trying to remake the net from scratch, hasn't rather worked out. But Curtis Yarvin becomes a millionaire and becomes an important sound successful what's known arsenic the tech right. And complete time, his connection spreads done Silicon Valley, and moreover JD Vance is quoting him earlier he runs for Senate successful podcasts, quoting his thought specifically for a early president to return powerfulness and commencement acting for illustration a dictator, starting pinch purging the authorities of monolithic amounts of national employees.

MOSLEY: Right. This is wherever I want to slow down because he writes each of this worldly many, galore years ago. But then, now we are here, Gil, this thought of RAGE, which you were conscionable astir to talk about, the discontinue each authorities employees. And 10 years later, DOGE really fires hundreds of thousands of national workers. And you constitute that it isn't - it's not moreover clear that Trump has ever heard of Curtis Yarvin. So really does a blogger's thought go a national policy?

DURAN: Through the Silicon Valley donors. They brought those ideas to Washington. Clearly, JD Vance helped bring those ideas to Washington. And that was 1 of those points, too, erstwhile I deliberation moreover the constitution property yet realized - The New York Times and others wrote astir this - that the thought we came to cognize arsenic DOGE, wherever Elon Musk was installed fundamentally arsenic the CEO complete the national authorities to trim and purge and destruct arsenic overmuch of it arsenic imaginable came from Curtis Yarvin's thought of RAGE, discontinue each authorities employees.

And that's - successful early 2025, Curtis Yarvin becomes an world personage because it's truthful clear that he's the feline down DOGE. In fact, The Washington Post had a communicative saying that this is the feline down the DOGE idea, RAGE, and that moreover group successful the Trump management had said they'd each publication Curtis Yarvin. So these crazy ideas move from the margins of nine from these random anonymous weirdo blogs connected the net to national argumentation nether Donald Trump. Now, DOGE didn't really past very long, and it ended up collapsing. You really can't person a CEO ego challenging the president's ego. But that wasn't the only thought that Yarvin had.

He had besides suggested that the United States should wholly undo its negotiated opinionated successful the world, extremity being the defender of state and populist and specifically should trim world assistance programs. And we saw that hap arsenic good pinch the USAID cuts, which are predicted to origin millions of unnecessary preventable deaths successful the poorest countries successful the world. So that's why I deliberation it's important to recognize that the weird worldly these guys opportunity successful their blogs aliases successful their speeches is not conscionable eccentric fluff. Because they person truthful overmuch money, they tin move these weird ideas into argumentation and origin tremendous damage. And I judge that that's what we're seeing now, is the execution of these bizarre and vulnerable ideas connected a standard that moreover I didn't deliberation was imaginable erstwhile each this first started.

MOSLEY: I deliberation that's the thing. It's benignant of difficult erstwhile location are truthful galore ideas retired there, 'cause I went looking for immoderate of Yarvin's writings, and it's really difficult to show wherever his arguments extremity and really, essentially, wherever his trolling begins. For instance, you really constitute astir an effort wherever he imagines San Francisco's authorities replaced by a corp and past wonders whether the group it deems unproductive successful nine could past beryllium converted into substance for metropolis buses. And past he says he's kidding. But you person decided that these jokes aren't really jokes, 'cause it sounds wholly astounding and ridiculous connected the look of it.

DURAN: Well, what he says aft he says he's kidding is that the thought is that we request a quality replacement to genocide for the poor. And I suppose that's what we're seeing successful the USAID cuts, wherever we're conscionable going to fto illness and starvation return distant group and extremity their lives. And so, portion of what they do is they show the truth successful these long-winded, absurd ways. They show their truth. They speak their existent message, but they somewhat disguise it arsenic satire. But now it's go very clear that Yarvin's not joking and that the billionaires who support Curtis Yarvin are not joking. They spot their chance to portion distant the national bureaucracy and regulations to extremity world assistance programs and to really undermine the very law ground of our authorities by exerting their authority done crypto and - each the things that they opportunity are the things that they do.

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MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley and my impermanent is journalist Gil Duran. His caller book is "The Nerd Reich: Silicon Valley Fascism And The War On Democracy."

I want to break down this fascination pinch the thought of the web authorities and what we're really talking astir here. So what is simply a web state? What does regular life wrong of 1 look like?

DURAN: Well, the astir basal meaning of a web state, according to Srinivasan, is simply a organization that forms online of like-minded group who past determine to spell and crowdfund a caller territory location and commencement their ain country.

And what does life look for illustration successful a web state? We don't really person an reply to that because not galore group spent overmuch clip successful them, but the thought has manifested successful 2 ways. One, 1 could opportunity that the tech takeover of our existent government, its alignment pinch Trump, is an effort astatine the web authorities thought - utilizing their money and power to return complete an existing authorities and move it to their purposes. But we besides spot immoderate projects astir the world wherever they are trying to create caller nations. One of them is successful Honduras, called Prospera, wherever a group of tech billionaires person funded a caller colony that has, like, a agency building and a edifice and immoderate residences which they're trying to create into a caller sovereign territory wherever the - wherever accustomed regulations and laws don't apply.

MOSLEY: And Thiel has funded this, arsenic good arsenic a fewer others, for illustration Sam Altman and Srinivasan.

DURAN: And Marc Andreessen, done a institution called Pronomos Capital. They person a full company, a task superior institution that's dedicated to backing these projects astir the world. And this is very unpopular successful Honduras, wherever the Supreme Court declared it unconstitutional and the legislature passed a rule saying that these kinds of projects are really not allowed. So that's 1 example.

There's different illustration called Praxis, which is simply a projected city, besides funded by Pronomos Capital and a bunch of tech billionaires, that was primitively going to build a caller metropolis location successful the Mediterranean, but aft not uncovering anybody who wanted this tech metropolis successful the Mediterranean, decided it would beryllium built successful Greenland. And this coincided pinch Trump threatening to return Greenland. In fact, immoderate of these guys went complete location and toured Greenland and were making a batch of sound astir how, if we return Greenland, we're going to build this metropolis here. So Trump besides has this thought that he projected successful 2023 to build what he calls Freedom Cities connected national onshore - fundamentally person a title to spot who wants to build a caller city. And personification wins the competition, they get national onshore to build a caller city.

So there's this thought that billionaires request to money the creation of their ain cities truthful that they tin govern them arsenic they wish. We've besides seen immoderate efforts that look very akin present successful California. California Forever is this projected metropolis successful Solano County, adjacent San Francisco, wherever a group of billionaires secretly spent $900 cardinal to bargain up 60,000 acres of onshore successful a spot pinch nary water, nary infrastructure, nary roads and a rule that specifically prevents these kinds of projects from being built there. And now they're trying to enforce it connected the group of Solano County, wherever 70% of voters reason the project. And immoderate group say, well, that's not really a web state. But the mobility is, why do billionaires abruptly request to build a bunch of cities everywhere?

MOSLEY: That is the question. And also, if these cities get built, who gets to unrecorded successful them and who gets to - who gets excluded? What is the world that they're trying to build?

DURAN: A world that they afloat control, a world wherever nary 1 tin mobility their authority and a world wherever they tin exclude anyone they don't want, they don't for illustration aliases they don't person thing successful communal with. They are trying to build caller territories from scratch. And this is not a caller idea. It's occurred passim history - group trying to build caller zones and territories wherever they tin flight the regular rules, regular taxes, etc. The quality is that now, alternatively of conscionable trying to flight taxes aliases definite laws, they want to build zones to flight populist altogether. And it's astonishing the grade to which this is openly discussed, to the constituent that there's moreover a institution that's backing these projects and an yearly conference, the Network State Conference, which anyone tin look up connected YouTube, wherever they talk astir their plans to create this caller world of tech-controlled cities.

MOSLEY: The president successful peculiar - you talked astir those Freedom Cities that he was proposing. There were 10 Freedom Cities built from scratch connected national land, arsenic you mentioned, a title for the champion designs. And he ne'er really explained why the state needs these caller cities alternatively of investing successful the ones we already have. And you make this constituent - that the property that covered the announcement didn't really inquire the questions. This is - like, this thought has benignant of moved on, but the president has moreover talked astir this is simply a anticipation for Gaza.

DURAN: Definitely. One of the places this popped up successful the astir absurd and shocking measurement was successful Gaza, wherever President Trump posted a video - an AI-generated video - of a Trump casino successful Gaza, connected the beach, pinch money raining down and Elon Musk and this benignant of imagination of a early techno-utopia Gaza. And there's a connection to really build this point successful Gaza. And everyplace you look, you're seeing this thought that things will beryllium replaced pinch caller tech billionaire cities. In fact, there's Gaza, immoderate tech billionaires person projected building a caller Freedom City astatine Guantanamo Bay successful Cuba. When the United States invaded Venezuela and arrested President Maduro, personification chimed successful and said, it's clip to build a Freedom City successful Venezuela.

So this thought of Freedom Cities, which are web states, keeps recurring. And it's not clear whether Trump will really propulsion it off. We haven't heard a batch astir the 10 Freedom Cities connected national land, truthful I deliberation that would beryllium a disaster and he's moving retired of clip to do it. But you do spot immoderate of the astir powerful men successful the world calling for the creation of these caller cities - Gaza, Greenland, Guantanamo, you sanction it. And that's wherever I deliberation it becomes astir clear that they're superior astir this.

MOSLEY: These guys, not each of them are precisely happy pinch the Trump administration. You constitute astir Curtis Yarvin successful particular, who says the 2nd Trump gyration is failing and that he has told his friends he plans to time off the country. Other tech billionaires besides person homes and lands and trying to build different cities, arsenic you said, like, successful different places. What does that show us, if the architects are besides considering packing and leaving up - leaving the country?

DURAN: Curtis Yarvin is decidedly panicking and saying it's clip to time off the country. But if you look astatine what he's saying underneath that, it's that Trump needs to spell further - that Trump needs to beryllium afloat authoritarian, afloat fascist and make it clear that this is nary longer a populist and that he won't beryllium letting spell of power, and that if he doesn't do that, location will beryllium awesome reward later for everyone who was progressive successful this. So it's an statement for being much extreme.

In the meantime, Peter Thiel appears to beryllium taking his advice. He precocious bought a $12 cardinal mansion successful Argentina, which - and he seems to beryllium spending clip location now pinch his family. He was location for 2 months, now he's returned for different visit. So successful a weird way, you tin ever spot Thiel pointing the guidance to wherever things are going. And if Trump doesn't spell afloat authoritarian and prehend powerfulness and support it, past I deliberation a batch of billionaires who participated successful this are going to beryllium tense and fearful of the anticipation of existent accountability and mightiness activity to flight elsewhere. Balaji Srinivasan, the web authorities guy, has fled to Singapore and is now readying to commencement his caller federation successful Kazakhstan, which is an authoritarian country. So they mightiness extremity up - this fistful of billionaires - floating retired there, looking for thing too the United States.

MOSLEY: What is it for illustration for you to beryllium immersed successful this world, beryllium penning astir it to the grade that you're penning astir it some connected your blog and successful this book, and you're sitting successful immoderate acheronian things, and it sounds for illustration conspiracies to galore group who whitethorn not beryllium steeped successful it?

DURAN: It was reliable astatine first. I felt for illustration immoderate group looked astatine maine for illustration I had 3 heads, including immoderate of my friends. A batch of my colleagues successful publicity - group I've known for decades, who knew maine erstwhile I was the property caput for each important personification successful California - didn't moreover mention it to maine erstwhile I'd beryllium going viral. But I consciousness for illustration I was conscionable a small spot up of the curve, and different group are now each location and everyone understands what I'm talking about. They're proceeding it successful different places, too. And truthful I conscionable deliberation that I did what I group retired to do arsenic a journalist. You know, each journalist's dream is to find a communicative that isn't being told and to show it successful time, to show it urgently. But I deliberation there's powerfulness and dream successful being capable to explicate to group what is happening and springiness them the devices and the knowing they request to conflict backmost and to explicate it to others.

MOSLEY: Gil Duran, convey you for this conversation.

DURAN: Thank you.

MOSLEY: Gil Duran's caller book is "The Nerd Reich: Silicon Valley Fascism And The War On Democracy."

After a short break, stone professional Ken Tucker celebrates the 50th day of the soundtrack to the movie "Sparkle," produced by Curtis Mayfield and sung by Aretha Franklin. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF YOUNG-HOLT UNLIMITED'S "SOULFUL STRUT")

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