Description
We now cognize harmful “forever chemicals” are apt successful the bodies of astir group connected earth. Decades ago, 3M knew that these chemicals had seeped into the public’s blood, but they kept that a secret. One 3M intelligence helped newsman Sharon Lerner understand really they kept it quiet for truthful long.
Read the original communicative here.
Transcript
Editor’s Note: “Paper Trail” is produced arsenic an audio series. If you are able, we promote you to perceive to the series. This transcript has been lightly edited for style.
Jessica Lussenhop: So I cognize that you don’t cognize me. But you and I astir apt person thing successful common. It’s rather apt that wrong you and maine and almost each surviving point connected this crazy bluish marble … is simply a small constituent called … “forever chemicals.”
I’m judge you’ve heard of them. These are the chemicals, invented by humans, coating products for illustration nonstick pans. For decades, they were put successful nutrient packaging — like, they utilized to beryllium connected McDonald’s hamburger wrappers. They’re successful mascara and firefighting foam. On couches, carpets and raincoats, to make them stainproof and water-repellent. And from those products and from factories they’ve dispersed … everywhere.
Lerner: It’s go clear that these chemicals are really successful each authorities and successful each state and successful everybody.
Lussenhop: My ProPublica workfellow Sharon Lerner is 1 of the galore group who helped uncover this. Forever chemicals — besides known arsenic PFAS — are … forever. They don’t break down easy successful the situation aliases successful our bodies.
Lerner: They person developmental effects, immune effects. Thyroid, liver, hormonal systems. Some origin cancer, kidney cancer, obesity. They hindrance to proteins successful your blood, and they alteration really systems successful your bodies work.
Lussenhop: By the clip each this became public, group for illustration you and I had been happily eating our hamburgers and lazing connected our couches for decades pinch nary thought those chemicals moreover existed aliases that they were getting wrong of our bodies. But astir 10 years ago, Sharon started reporting connected a group of group who did know.
Lerner: And I spent a batch of clip successful those 10 years figuring retired what the companies that put those chemicals into the situation and yet into each of us: what they knew astir it while they were doing it.
Lussenhop: She learned that 3M, the institution that pioneered the accumulation of these chemicals, knew that these chemicals were toxic for decades, since the 1970s, but they kept making them anyway.
Lerner: That’s what transformed, benignant of, a mini problem into a planet-changing disaster. It could’ve been stopped.
Lussenhop: Sharon wrote astir 60 stories astir everlastingly chemicals and investigated: What precisely did these companies know, and erstwhile did they cognize it?
But location was 1 mobility successful each of her reporting that she never sewage an reply to: How did they support it a concealed for truthful long? No 1 wrong 3M who knew the concealed had ever agreed to talk to her. But past …
Lerner: I sewage an email from a scientist, and she said she utilized to activity astatine 3M.
Lussenhop: This personification wrote that she had worked successful 3M’s biology laboratory successful the 1990s, erstwhile she was a young scientist. And she had handled, quote, “highly delicate data.” It quickly became clear that she had known thing astir everlastingly chemicals agelong earlier the nationalist did … but she’d ne'er talked astir it publicly.
Lerner (reading): She said, I precocious near 3M […] aft a 27-year profession …
Lussenhop: And now, each these years later, she wanted to talk.
Lerner (reading): I realized that the communicative I person is simply a missing portion of astatine slightest 1 strand of the story. I thought, “Hmm, intriguing.”
Lussenhop: How does a institution pinch thousands of employees, thousands of quality beings, really do they support a concealed this large for this long? A concealed that affects the lives of astir each surviving being connected the planet. Maybe, Sharon thought, this erstwhile 3M insider could explain.
Lussenhop: I mean, really did it consciousness to prime up the telephone the first clip and telephone her?
Lerner: Well, I do retrieve emotion conflicted. You know, I assumed the worst, honestly. Not the worst, but I thought, “Well, here’s personification who knew this point for 20 years and sat connected it, and really tin that beryllium OK?” But I’m looking astatine my ain response, which was “Dear Ms. Hansen, I americium truthful happy to perceive from you,” 3 exclamation points. “I would LOVE,” each caps, “to talk.”
REPORTING CALL, Sharon Lerner: Hello?
REPORTING CALL, Kris Hansen: Hi, this is Kris.
REPORTING CALL, Lerner: Hi, Kris, it’s Sharon.
Lerner: I mean, of people I was interested.
REPORTING CALL, Lerner: I could talk. I would beryllium happy, if you wanted to talk for days, I would listen, you cognize …
Lussenhop: I’m Jessica Lussenhop. This is “Paper Trail.”
Lussenhop: As it turned out, Sharon and Kris Hansen, the erstwhile 3M scientist, did talk for days …
REPORTING CALL, Hansen: Hey, Sharon.
REPORTING CALL, Lerner: Hey, Kris. Is this still an OK time?
REPORTING CALL, Hansen: Yeah, it’s great. I conscionable sewage home. It’s perfect.
Lussenhop: They had galore telephone conversations.
REPORTING CALL, Lerner: It’s truthful early, but I’m gladsome you’re up. I cognize you’re an early riser.
REPORTING CALL, Hansen: No problem. Are you guys getting buried successful snow?
Lussenhop: Eventually Sharon sewage connected the roadworthy …
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Lerner: It’s getting benignant of rural.
Lussenhop: … to question and reply her successful personification wherever she lives, successful Minnesota.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Lerner: Hi, Kris!
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: I’m gladsome you recovered it. Perhaps a small spot much retired of the measurement than you’re utilized to.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Lerner: It’s lovely.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: This a bully spot, looks retired connected the river.
Lussenhop: Kris told Sharon that the earthy beauty present was 1 of the reasons why she lives successful Minnesota. Not acold from 3M’s headquarters. She first started activity astatine 3M successful the summertime of 1996.
Lerner: Kris had precocious vanished a Ph.D. successful chemistry.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: I was conscionable coming disconnected of a postdoc.
Lerner: And she considered herself an environmentalist.
Lussenhop: Kris told Sharon that moving astatine a large institution for illustration 3M wasn’t her first prime … but she became convinced.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: People said, you know, immoderate of the biggest impacts that you could person would beryllium to activity from the wrong of industry, alternatively of connected the outside. Because connected the inside, you person entree to a batch much information. And truthful I did travel to judge that I could person an effect there.
Lussenhop: Plus, 3M wasn’t conscionable immoderate aged chemic company. It had an astonishing reputation.
Lerner: Kris’s dada was an technologist astatine 3M, and he was benignant of celebrated successful the company, aliases very good regarded. And also, group successful Minnesota and successful her organization mostly loved 3M.
Lussenhop: Full disclosure: I grew up successful Minnesota, adjacent the office of 3M, too. My mom worked location for a number of years. And I tin corroborate that 3M has a full personality and a civilization astir it. It’s known for ingenuity, for making products that make each of our lives conscionable a small spot easier. I mean, for god’s sake, they invented Scotch portion and Post-It notes. 3M makes lifesaving aesculapian supplies for illustration N95 masks and infirmary equipment. Astronauts utilized 3M products during the first satellite landing.
3M Innovation Commercial: We make a quality successful the world because we make the leap from request to innovation. 3M innovation.
Lussenhop: 3M came to mean truthful overmuch much to group than conscionable its products. It was a testament to American ingenuity. It was a playground for scientists.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: So I deliberation I was a beautiful emblematic caller Ph.D. analytical chemist. I was, um, excited astir starting a occupation that I felt I could make an impact.
Lerner: Her first occupation astatine 3M was moving successful the biology lab.
Lussenhop: By the clip Kris started moving location successful the ’90s, 3M had been mass-producing everlastingly chemicals for decades, which they utilized successful their ain products for illustration Scotchgard — a liquid you tin spray connected worldly to make it water-repellent — and they sold it to different companies for usage successful a full bunch of different products.
After she joined 3M, 1 of the first things Kris learned was that sometimes, these chemicals made their measurement from the products into the bodies of 3M mill workers. This was discovered years earlier Kris moreover started astatine 3M, erstwhile the institution would trial their workers’ humor for thing called PFOS — a type of everlastingly chemical.
Lerner: So they knew that immoderate of their chemicals get into the workers’ blood.
Lussenhop: But her bosses told her that the chemicals were not toxic. They were conscionable keeping their oculus connected the levels arsenic a precaution. 3M had precocious hired an extracurricular laboratory to measurement the levels successful workers’ blood. But that laboratory ran into thing unexpected.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: And that’s erstwhile my leader asked maine to get involved.
Lussenhop: There seemed to beryllium a problem … not pinch the workers’ humor samples, but pinch the control humor samples they were using. To get an meticulous count of chemicals successful the worker blood, the extracurricular laboratory needed thing to comparison it to.
Lerner: They wanted to comparison it to, like, a blank, what they telephone it, personification who’s unexposed, and so, they were utilizing humor slope blood.
Lussenhop: The humor slope humor was expected to beryllium from random group retired successful the world who person thing to do pinch 3M: didn’t activity there, had ne'er been location and truthful shouldn’t person been exposed to 3M’s chemicals. That humor slope humor was expected to person nary PFOS. But this extracurricular laboratory ran into a problem.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: It was like, there’s thing present that looks for illustration PFOS.
Lussenhop: So Kris’ bosses gave her a task.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: Figure retired what that point is truthful we tin get free of it and do an meticulous count successful the, successful the workers’ blood.
Lerner: And erstwhile she did commencement looking into it, what she recovered was …
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: It wasn’t an chartless contaminant. No, there’s PFOS successful the humor of the non-occupationally exposed population.
Lerner: And astatine first she thinks, “Oh, that’s odd,” and she repeats it.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: I made a batch of changes to some the extraction method and the analytical method.
Lerner: Then she repeats it galore times.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: I was like, this is decidedly PFOS.
Lerner: It shows again that PFOS is successful the humor from the wide population.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: To find a chemic associated pinch your institution successful the humor of the wide organization and not really cognize really it sewage location is frightening. It conscionable opened up truthful galore questions. How did it get there?
Lussenhop: Every humor sample she tested — each azygous 1 — had PFOS successful it.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: This is bad. This is really a bad thing.
Lerner: Even though she was told they were not toxic, she knows, being a chemist and a quality being, that it’s mostly not awesome to person man-made chemicals successful your blood, particularly if they past for a agelong time, arsenic these ones do. And she goes to her boss, personification named Jim Johnson.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: I showed him the data, and he looked astatine it and he said, “This changes everything.” And he walked into his agency and unopen his door.
Lerner: Jim Johnson doesn’t travel retired and springiness her immoderate further info, and soon thereafter …
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: He retired conscionable a fewer weeks aft the discovery.
Lerner: He says he’s taking early retirement, and he leaves the company.
Lussenhop: Oh my God.
Lerner: Yeah.
Lussenhop: Does she upwind up having a speech pinch him wherever he says, “I’m retiring, but you support going,” or, “I’m retiring, but …” — anything? Did he springiness her immoderate consciousness of what to do next?
Lerner: No. There was not a clear speech astir her activity aliases what she should do pinch it aliases really she should proceed.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: I deliberation he was supportive of me, but past he was gone. And truthful that near maine isolated and without, uh, an contiguous champion.
Lerner: And I deliberation she really was confused and felt adrift.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: I conscionable retrieve sitting solitarily collecting much information and trying to process things and being like, do I talk astir this? Do I not talk astir this? What does this mean?
Lerner: Jim Johnson, her boss, had told his superiors astir her work, and she becomes alert of their interest, mostly successful the shape of doubt.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: There was this idea, like, evidently this is wrong. Obviously you made a mistake. So you request to fig retired what that correction was, because now this information exists.
Lerner: They inquire her, “Did you cleanable your equipment? Because possibly it’s the equipment.”
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: We cleaned the instrument. We extracted and looked astatine each azygous worldly that touched quality blood. Every imaginable root of contamination.
Lerner: And group opportunity to her, you know, “We deliberation you’re wrong.”
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: Like, if you can’t find a sample without PFOS, we aren’t gonna judge that this is genuinely PFOS. And I was defensive. I felt very personally responsible. So of people I was moving my tail disconnected to effort and, and do immoderate research that I could to either say, OK, I conjecture we made a mistake, aliases much apt we didn’t make that mistake. And if you person different proposal for us, we’ll do it.
Lerner: At 1 point, 1 of her colleagues comes successful and says, “Oh, I person immoderate humor for you to test. Why don’t you spot if you tin find PFOS successful this?”
IN PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: And I said, what are they? And he wouldn’t show me. He said, “Just analyse them.”
Lerner: And she does, and the adjacent greeting he says, “Did you find it?”
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: Let’s spot the information you collected past night, and location was PFOS successful those samples, and he was jubilant. He was like, “This proves you’re wrong, because I collected those samples from my horses, and my horses person ne'er walked connected Scotchgarded carpet aliases eaten astatine McDonald’s. I didn’t person an explanation. I had nary thought really it sewage into his horses’ blood.
Lussenhop: Kris ended up testing each kinds of nonhuman blood.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: We looked astatine chickens, cows, pigs.
Lerner: Rabbits.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: Rats, of course.
Lerner: Eagles.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: And albatross and fish.
Lerner: And the reply was yes, yes and yes, benignant of wherever she looked.
IN PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: All of them. So the 2nd benignant of earth-shaking infinitesimal was to recognize that it was successful the humor of bald eagles, for example. It’s successful fish, and truthful it’s successful eagles. And it’s successful fish, and truthful it’s successful group who eat fish, and it’s successful the nutrient web, which intends it’s everywhere. It’s funny for me. It’s for illustration I’ve ever been fascinated pinch eagles. They’re astonishing birds. I emotion to watch them. And truthful each clip I saw an eagle, I would wonder, oh, I spot you person a food and you’re going to provender your babies and you’re going to springiness them immoderate chemicals, and I dream that will beryllium OK for your small eagle family.
Lussenhop: After Kris realized each of this, she presented her activity to her colleagues showing that it was everywhere.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: One of the scientists, he said thing to the effect of, “Why are you doing this? What do you dream to accomplish? This isn’t helpful.”
Lussenhop: It was strange. Having much information successful mentation should person helped Kris beryllium thing large was going connected here. But it seemed for illustration the much information she gathered, the much her colleagues thought it proved the opposite: that it couldn’t perchance beryllium true. It seemed for illustration the only point that could person them was to find a sample without PFOS successful it. But where?
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: So we were testing immoderate humor samples that our epidemiology section could get from different countries, from Sweden. Just immoderate samples they could travel up with. And we kept uncovering PFOS successful each of the samples. And they yet came up pinch a beautiful mini group of samples that had been archived, that were collected from Korean War recruits successful the early 1950s.
Lussenhop: Meaning … this was humor collected before products containing everlastingly chemicals … products for illustration Scotchgard … were being mass-produced and sold everywhere.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: It was the first dataset that we recovered nary PFOS. And that was transformative. There was immense relief.
Lerner: What it meant was that her findings were real. If it wasn’t successful immoderate samples, that intends it really was successful others. At the infinitesimal she discovered it, she said basically, “I’m not crazy. This is real.”
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: But past location was besides this, like, almost despair, like, this decidedly now shows that not only is it coming successful the humor of people, but this is simply a 3M chemic that 3M put into the world. We are the source.
Lussenhop: Around the aforesaid clip she made this discovery, she was amazed to travel crossed an aged insubstantial that was related to her activity — it explained a method for measuring everlastingly chemicals successful quality blood.
Lerner: And she realizes that 1 of the authors is still astatine 3M. And she arranges to meet him.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: And he was very friendly, and I gave him, you know, “Hey, this is what we’re doing.” And he said, “Yeah, I know. I don’t understand why everyone is making specified a large woody astir this. We’ve known astir this since the 1970s. I was like, “What? You’ve known that there’s PFOS successful the humor of non-occupationally exposed workers for 20 years?” And he was like, “Yeah, I don’t cognize why they’re making specified a large woody astir this now.”
Lussenhop: What?
Lerner: Yeah. Yeah. She’s, you know, flipping her lid, but besides softly taking notes and conscionable taking successful what he says.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: But also, like, why, why did group springiness maine specified a difficult clip that I was wrong, that my information was bad, that I was arrogant, erstwhile we knew. This is — I was discovering it for the 2nd time, not the first.
Lerner: They had known each along, astatine slightest personification had known each along. It really made maine ideate what she was going done and really gaslit she really was.
Lussenhop: This intelligence told Kris that backmost successful the 1970s, the company’s lawyers told him not to show anyone that he’d figured retired that PFOS had been recovered successful the humor of the wide population.
Lerner: What she didn’t cognize was: Who other knew?
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: Who knew? Who knew and forgot? Who, who ne'er knew, who knew and was conscionable keeping their fingers crossed that we would driblet the investigation?
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: I told my boss.
Lussenhop: Her caller boss, that is — aft Jim Johnson retired.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: Told him what I had recovered some successful the literature, but past besides what I came backmost from this question and reply with. He didn’t respond successful immoderate way. Like, ohio my gosh, I had nary idea. Or, you know, he conscionable didn’t respond. He said, “Write down your notes astir what you learned and springiness it to me. Don’t email it; conscionable springiness it to me.” And uh, so, you know, I did. I went into my agency and I had my notes and I typed down everything that I had learned successful that gathering and, uh, shared a copy.
Lussenop: Kris had nary thought what would hap to these notes she took.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: If it was truthful easy forgotten and buried backmost then, like, what — you know, what’s gonna hap now?
Lussenhop: That’s next.
–
Lussenhop: In early 1999, Kris is invited to a really important meeting. She would person the chance to coming her findings to 3M’s CEO. Kris is encouraged by this. Maybe this is her large changeable to get personification to yet listen.
Lerner: So she prepares, practices, makes these transparencies and explains each her findings, and she’s sewage galore pages. She goes up to the executive suite connected a typical elevator.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: And it is very intimidating because you, you get disconnected the typical elevator and you person to, you know, reshow your badge to the administrative adjunct who’s there.
Lerner: And erstwhile she gets there, they’re astatine a large table, each these men pinch suits.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: And the CEO was astatine the very extremity of the table. And it was conscionable — moreover astatine the time, struck maine arsenic benignant of comical because I’m astatine 1 extremity of this table, and measurement astatine the different extremity of this agelong array are these 5 aliases six men, you know, identically dressed successful achromatic shirts and jackets.
Lerner: And she starts trying to show them astir her research.
IN PERSON INTERVIEW – Hansen: One of them derisively said, “Just get to the point.” And like, “Do you, are you perfectly 100% affirmative astir this? Can you deliberation astir immoderate different imaginable explanation? Who told you to do this work? Why did you do this study? Why did you look astatine this?”
Lussenhop: In consequence to that question, like, “Who put you up to this?” I mean, it, it was her erstwhile boss, Jim Johnson, wasn’t it?
Lerner: It was her boss, yeah. And arsenic this is each going on, she looks up.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: I’m looking down this table, pinch the CEO astatine the caput of the table. His eyes benignant of droop, and his chin drops, and he nods off.
Lerner: He was asleep.
Lussenhop: No!
Lerner: That’s, yeah.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: And I retrieve moreover successful that moment, benignant of stepping backmost and saying, well, this is conscionable bizarre because these guys are measurement much agitated than I would’ve thought. And the personification who they’re agitated for is asleep! You know, astatine immoderate constituent he woke up, and he ne'er said a connection the full time. And just, you know, astatine the end, 1 of the business leaders benignant of dismissed maine pinch a activity of his hand, and I grabbed my three-ring binder and near the room.
Lerner: She’s told not to inquire questions, and going forward, it — there’s a different squad who will beryllium moving connected PFOS, and she won’t beryllium connected it.
Lussenhop: A fewer months later, Kris and her hubby went to a picnic pinch a bunch of 3M scientists.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: My begetter hosted this picnic for 3M’s apical scientists, firm scientists. And often, uh, my hubby and I would conscionable spell and help. And truthful I was like, I don’t know, grilling corn. And 1 of the group came up to maine and, you know, asked maine if I thought I was powerful, ruining people’s careers, and did I spell looking for problems for illustration this because I was envious of group who could create solutions and not conscionable create problems for illustration I did. So this was, like, a elder intelligence successful the company, and he was very pointed that I was doing thing not moreover to harm the company, but to harm the scientists who had invented these chemicals. And I didn’t really cognize what to say.
Lerner: What she ended up doing was benignant of putting her caput down and trying to not deliberation astir it. She tried to compartmentalize it and conscionable benignant of put this really traumatic acquisition down her and move connected to caller things.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: I’m not trying to overgarment myself arsenic immoderate benignant of an eco hero, because location was besides very overmuch an constituent of, like, my husband’s successful schoolhouse correct now, we person twins connected the measurement and I’m successful my first job. This isn’t a awesome clip for maine personally to locomotion away, particularly pinch a estimation now arsenic personification who is benignant of a troublemaker.
Lerner: She has twins and past different child, and she moves to different section of 3M that has thing to do pinch these chemicals, and she leaves the biology lab. She really buries the issue, and she seems to benignant of seal it and put it connected a support and locomotion away.
Lussenhop: So present astatine past was the reply to Sharon’s question, which was: How does a concealed this huge, this planetary, enactment a concealed for truthful agelong successful a institution wherever immoderate group knew? The answer, astatine slightest successful the communicative Sharon found, isn’t successful burned records aliases convulsive threats. In this instance, it was, successful part, discouraging and questioning a young worker truthful consistently and truthful harshly that she yet gives up trying to talk astir it. The concealed was besides kept because Kris didn’t person each the information. Her bosses told her these chemicals weren’t toxic.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: I mean, I really clung to that: “At slightest it’s not harmful.” I didn’t look astatine that arsenic critically arsenic I should have, but it almost would’ve been excessively overmuch to carnivore astatine the time. I deliberation what I was acrophobic of is that I would find retired that it was hazardous to quality health.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Lerner: And past what would’ve happened?
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: And past I, I’d conscionable be, like, it’s everywhere: that those eagles and those fish, like, location is existent imaginable for these to origin harm.
Lerner: The standard is planetary, right? I mean, if you person a contaminated plant, you could cleanable it up. If it’s successful each quality being and animals astir the world, um, that’s virtually intolerable to cleanable up.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: I don’t moreover cognize really to wrap my caput astir that. And truthful it was very easy to opportunity it’s not harmful. And to unrecorded successful that fantasy.
Lussenhop: As Kris continued surviving successful that imagination … the remainder of the world … was waking up to the truth astir these chemicals.
She didn’t cognize it astatine the time, but successful the precocious ’90s, successful compliance pinch a national law, 3M notified the EPA that they’d recovered PFOS successful humor samples from each complete the state … though they besides claimed location were “no adverse effects.” The EPA’s consequence was to unit 3M to discontinue making PFOS-related chemicals. Which they did, successful 2002. This was, successful part, acknowledgment to Kris’ research. But 3M swapped successful different everlastingly chemic arsenic a replacement, which besides stays successful the situation and builds up successful the body.
Around the aforesaid clip successful West Virginia, a bunch of cows who were grazing downstream from a DuPont tract started getting sick, foaming astatine the mouth. More than a 100 yet died. It turned retired that the h2o connected the workplace contained everlastingly chemicals. That … became the taxable of a lawsuit, which ended successful a settlement, a three-part bid by Sharon Lerner … and the crippled of a movie called “Dark Waters,” each alerting the nationalist astir everlastingly chemicals.
But Kris didn’t cognize immoderate of that. When she’d spot news astir everlastingly chemicals, she told Sharon she’d conscionable benignant of debar it.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: I possibly would glimpse astatine it, but I wouldn’t publication it very carefully. It’s almost for illustration I conscionable didn’t really want to know.
Lussenhop: Until 2021. An aged assemblage professor sent her a connection pinch a nexus to a video.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: A John Oliver video.
LAST WEEK TONIGHT WITH JOHN OLIVER, John Oliver: Our main communicative coming concerns chemicals. Specifically, we’re gonna beryllium talking astir a peculiar people of chemicals tonight, called PFAS.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: He was reporting connected PFAS and the effect that it had connected communities.
LAST WEEK TONIGHT WITH JOHN OLIVER, John Oliver: The Teflon mesh decomposes to thing called devil’s piss. Yeah. That doesn’t sound great, does it?
Lussenhop: The show referred to immoderate of Sharon’s reporting.
LAST WEEK TONIGHT WITH JOHN OLIVER, John Oliver: These chemicals person been linked to a monolithic array of wellness issues … precocious cholesterol, ulcerative colitis … thyroid disease, testicular and kidney crab and decreased consequence to vaccines.
Lerner: And Kris, her first guidance is …
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: He’s wrong. He’s talking astir each the ways that it’s harmful, and it’s not. I said, it benignant of makes maine mad, honestly.
Lerner: She writes backmost to her professor, and the professor says …
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: “Are you judge it’s wrong?” And truthful I benignant of rolled my eyes and past I went successful and I was like, OK, I’m conscionable gonna spell to the literature.
Lerner: And sitting successful her kitchen, Kris googles the wellness effects of the chemic that she had recovered truthful galore years ago.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: And I couldn’t judge really galore articles location were connected the toxicity associated pinch fluorochemicals.
Lerner: Just benignant of open-mouthed scrolling, realizes that it affects children’s immunity, that it has links pinch cancer, that it tin impact obesity. The wellness information starts to heap up, and it’s beautiful damning. And she’s reference done this and she’s stunned and has, I think, a very uncomfortable operation of emotions.
IN-PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: Yeah. I mean, angry astatine 3M for galore of the things that they’ve done. But besides angry astatine myself for realizing really quickly I accepted a connection astir toxicity because it was comfortable for me. Like, it’s a small spot unforgivable.
Lussenhop: It was aft reference done each this aesculapian lit that Kris sent Sharon that email and they started talking. A lot.
And arsenic the 2 spoke, Sharon went backmost done her aged documents — soul 3M documents that had helped her study retired what 3M knew. There was 1 archive that had been a cardinal portion of grounds successful that reporting. It was a group of notes. Not an email. Notes documenting a gathering betwixt 2 3M scientists. It said 3M knew astir PFOS successful humor arsenic early arsenic the 1970s. Sharon had ne'er known who wrote those notes.
Lerner: It was only erstwhile I talked to Kris and she told maine the communicative that I realized, ohio my goodness, these were her notes.
Lussenhop: That’s, that’s singular to me. I, I’m conscionable reasoning of, like, you getting an email from Kris, you know, initially, and thinking, “Oh, this is 1 of these group who knew this and, and benignant of sat connected it.” But astatine the aforesaid time, it’s almost like, I don’t — I can’t extremity reasoning astir it arsenic almost, like, she did do that work. She did her champion astatine the time. She kinda for illustration put this connection successful a vessel successful the ’90s, and, like, you sewage it. Eventually.
Lerner: That’s funny. Yeah. Yes.
Lussenhop: But location were gaps successful Kris’ knowledge, too, astir what had happened to her astatine 3M each those years ago.
Lerner: I became funny astir what she didn’t know, which was who among her bosses really knew what was going connected while they were fundamentally gaslighting her. Which of them knew? So I did effort to fig that out.
Lussenhop: Around the aforesaid clip that Sharon was speaking pinch Kris, location were each these lawsuits against 3M going connected complete everlastingly chemicals. Courts were forcing 3M to merchandise much and much of their ain soul records. New documents that Sharon could get her hands on. Some of them further confirmed that 3M had known that PFOS was successful the humor of the wide nationalist earlier Kris started moving there.
Lerner: One of those documents was written by nary different than Jim Johnson, her erstwhile boss. So I virtually gasped erstwhile I publication that.
Lussenhop: Jim Johnson had sent that archive to different worker — the feline who ended up becoming Kris’ 2nd boss.
Lerner: These were Kris’ 2 bosses, 1 who had fixed her the assignment, the different 1 who had ne'er fto connected that he knew thing astir what she was talking about. So some of them knew the full time. That’s what that showed me.
Lussenhop: Jim Johnson benignant of conscionable dropped this task connected her and walked away, and it was a mobility he was asking her to reply that he already knew the reply to. I mean, that’s just, like, it conscionable feels for illustration you have, like, gift-wrapped …
Lerner: A turd?
Lussenhop: Yeah. He just, he dropped, he dropped a turd connected her table and walked away.
Lerner: Yeah. So Jim Johnson, I knew I had to scope retired to him. I did not expect him to talk to me, but happily, uh, erstwhile I called, I was amazed to find that he did enactment connected the phone. What Jim Johnson said to maine is that he saw himself arsenic a bully worker and a loyal soldier, personification who will support secrets because that’s what you do for a bully employer.
Lussenhop: Did you ever get a satisfying reply from him astir why he did what he did pinch Kris and benignant of sent her down this rabbit hole?
Lerner: He said that he was disappointment that the accusation about, uh, its beingness successful humor hadn’t go public, and that he fundamentally wanted it to travel out, and that he planted the seed by asking Kris to do the activity analyzing the humor from the lab. He benignant of group it each successful motion, and he did it because he wanted it to travel out.
Lussenhop: There’s thing very puppetmaster-y astir that.
Lerner: Yeah, the affinity he used, he said he compared her to a vending machine. He said he knew what he was putting in, and he sewage what he expected out.
Lussenhop: Oh my God.
Lerner: Yeah. And erstwhile I pointed retired to him, “Well, you know, like, it’s really been rather a trauma for her, very difficult.” He said, “I didn’t opportunity I was a bully guy.”
Lussenhop: When Sharon reached retired to Kris’ 2nd boss, he told Sharon he didn’t retrieve the specifics astir his interactions pinch Kris.
Lussenhop: What did Kris opportunity erstwhile you told her astir your speech pinch Jim Johnson?
Lerner: She was upset.
PHONE CALL, Hansen: He was my boss, for Christ’s sake.
PHONE CALL, Lerner: Yeah.
PHONE CALL, Hansen: What the hell?
Lerner: I deliberation it sent her reeling a small bit. To cognize for judge that these group who had watched her, you know, suffer successful this way, and who had benignant of exacerbated her suffering by questioning her, had really known that she was correct the full time, I deliberation it was, uh, anguish.
PHONE CALL, Hansen: Jim knew the humanities data. He knew my data. His leader knew. So I, I conscionable consciousness for illustration it besides implicates the others. And past they dragged maine done that full play of saying, you’re wrong, you’re wrong, you’re wrong. And they each knew that I was right. Makes maine truthful mad.
PHONE CALL, Lerner: Yeah. Well, Kris, I’m sorry to dump each this connected you.
PHONE CALL, Hansen: That’s OK. It’s — I person a therapist now.
PHONE CALL, Lerner: That’s good.
PHONE CALL, Hansen: It’s each right.
PHONE CALL, Lerner: Off to the therapist pinch you, then.
Lerner: People, erstwhile they show stories astir what they’ve done successful their lives to others and to themselves, they often spot themselves arsenic the hero, right? ’Cause they’re the leader of their ain life. Um, and I deliberation that Jim benignant of saw himself arsenic the hero, arsenic personification who did his champion to get this accusation retired and did it by mounting up Kris. But it did get maine reasoning astir really secrets are kept.
Lussenhop: Yeah, it’s for illustration — you know, a institution is conscionable a bunch of people. Why would they each benignant of do their small portion to support this accusation a concealed for truthful long?
Lerner: Well, I deliberation that the genuine affection for the institution was real.
Lussenhop: Yeah, I person to opportunity that again, arsenic personification from Minnesota, I really do understand this benignant of just, like, wide affection towards 3M. And I besides deliberation that the first clip I learned astir immoderate of these chemicals and the effect that they were having, I didn’t wanna judge it either. Like, you just, like, there, there’s this roadblock successful your mind. You conscionable don’t want thing to beryllium true. You benignant of, like, ideate each these benignant of faceless prospective whistleblowers stepping successful and retired of the building and not doing the correct thing, and, and I, I person a difficult clip not seeing, like, family and friends and neighbors successful those roles. I mean, again, like, a company’s conscionable a bunch of people.
Lerner: Yes, and I deliberation that’s really — the reporting of this portion really made maine understand that. The measurement that I had thought astir companies and whistleblowers was possibly excessively simplistic. Sometimes you deliberation about, you know, there’s a concealed and then, and then, you know, let’s opportunity the priests are abusing children sexually and past personification just, you know, drops disconnected a container astatine The Boston Globe and boom, you know? And, and there, that is benignant of the Hollywood communicative of things, for illustration that there’s a acheronian concealed and past it gets exploded successful a infinitesimal and that’s surely not really this played out. It isn’t each clear-cut for illustration that.
Lussenhop: In 2025, 3M phased retired manufacturing PFAS. In a statement, a 3M spokesperson said, “3M has led manufacture successful addressing PFAS successful the environment.” The institution is “proactively managing PFAS,” and that 3M’s attack to the chemicals has evolved on pinch “the subject and exertion of PFAS, societal and regulatory expectations, and our expectations of ourselves.” “3M has taken, and will proceed to take, actions to reside PFAS manufactured anterior to the phaseout. This includes a $1 cardinal world finance successful state-of-the-art h2o curen technologies astatine our largest water-using locations. In 2024, 3M committed $10.3 cardinal to assistance nationalist h2o suppliers crossed the United States that had detected PFAS successful their h2o aliases would do truthful successful the future.”
The institution and its scientists person not admitted wrongdoing aliases faced criminal liability for producing everlastingly chemicals aliases for concealing their harms.
Sometimes Kris looks backmost connected each of this and fantasizes astir what she could person done differently. What would the champion type of herself person done successful that gathering pinch 3M’s CEO?
IN PERSON INTERVIEW, Hansen: The leader type of myself would say, let’s conscionable hold until the CEO has vanished his nap, and then, you know, he tin tune backmost successful because this is important. Superhero Kris would’ve been stronger, um, would person been much deliberate and much inclusive successful the communications because I deliberation benignant of the wider you pass things, the harder it is to power it.
Lerner: So is she a whistleblower? Is she not a whistleblower? I don’t know. She’s a human, you know, who recovered herself successful this really difficult business and helped a lot. She could’ve helped more, but she could’ve done a batch less.
Julia Longoria: This section was produced by Gabrielle Berbey and me, Julia Longoria. Editing by Katherine Wells. Fact-checking by Darya Marchenkova. Sound creation and mixing by David Herman. Music by Julian Sartorius, Filippo Ansaldi and Simone Sims Longo, pinch further euphony by Epidemic Sound. Our squad besides includes Sabby Robinson and Emma Talkoff.
This podcast is based connected a communicative co-published by ProPublica and The New Yorker. And typical acknowledgment to Diane Wu and “This American Life” for providing the tapes of Kris Hansen that you perceive successful this episode.
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