Dow Jones CEO Almar Latour on AI, press dom, and the future of news

Today, I’m talking pinch Almar Latour, who is the patient of The Wall Street Journal and CEO of its genitor institution Dow Jones, which you tin deliberation of arsenic a immense investigation and information supplier for companies of each sizes. Dow Jones itself is part of Rupert Murdoch’s News Corp.

Latour is simply a fascinating guy. He started arsenic a news adjunct astatine the Journal in the ’90s, spent clip arsenic a tech reporter, and yet roseate done the ranks to become CEO successful 2020, putting him successful complaint of really everything makes money.

And if you’ve been paying attention, you cognize it’s a reliable clip to beryllium making money successful the news business, particularly the paid news business. In summation to competing pinch the flood of free contented connected various societal and streaming platforms, the manufacture is besides facing caller challenges for illustration fights astir copyright and AI and battles pinch the Trump administration, which has been pushing difficult to unopen down captious reporting and limit property freedom.

Latour has penetration into each of that: On the news side, he’s made a big content-use deal pinch OpenAI while besides suing Perplexity for training without permission. On the different side, he’s pushing to build his own AI data products for Dow Jones customers.

He is simply a fierce defender of property state who fought to have Journal reporter Evan Gershkovich released from Russia aft being imprisoned for much than a year. But astatine the aforesaid time, he useful astatine News Corp, whose chairman, Rupert Murdoch, has deep ties to President Donald Trump and who has overseen a vastly polarized and politicized era of news media.

So I asked Latour astir each of that and really pushed him connected a fewer of his answers — moreover correct astatine the apical of the conversation, erstwhile I asked him astir the Journal cutting a immense chunk of its tech reporting squad virtually the time earlier we recorded. To his credit, Latour was crippled and he hung successful there, but you’ll perceive him congratulate maine for almost getting him to gaffe up. I did my best; I deliberation galore of you will person thoughts astir it.

Okay: Almar Latour, CEO of Dow Jones and patient of The Wall Street Journal. Here we go.

This question and reply has been lightly edited for magnitude and clarity.

Almar Latour, you are CEO of Dow Jones and the patient of The Wall Street Journal. Welcome to Decoder.

Great to beryllium here. Thank you.

I person a batch to talk astir pinch you. There’s an full group of analyzable AI questions that mightiness beryllium existential for the media industry, but you’re heavy invested successful building immoderate of that exertion and immoderate of those services, which I deliberation is interesting. There’s the wide authorities of the property successful 2025, which I want to talk to you about. I cognize you’re very willing successful property freedom.

But it happens that I person you connected the time aft the news, truthful I want to commencement pinch the news. Just past night, The Wall Street Journal, of which Dow Jones is the publisher, restructured really it covers tech and media. That progressive cutting astir 10 aliases 15 editors and reporters. Obviously, I’m very willing successful really you building a newsroom to screen tech. Why make that decision? Why get smaller?

First, this is simply a newsroom decision, truthful this is squarely successful the terrain of [editor-in-chief] Emma Tucker, who’s a caller editor, comparatively speaking. She’s successful twelvemonth two, moving into twelvemonth three. Emma was hired pinch a remit of helping to summation engagement pinch our existing readers, to grow our readership, and to support and heighten the value of our coverage. She has group retired complete the past 2 years to rethink really she wants to connection news pinch The Wall Street Journal newsroom.

Her accordant message, and this is 1 that I subscribe to, is that unique publicity is what makes the difference. It’s astir knowing the absorbing story, the communicative down the story, and to person exclusive publicity and insights. That I opportunity arsenic a preface because Emma has been making changes to astir each portion of The Wall Street Journal and continues to do that.

So what happened yesterday was a continuation of that. Generally, erstwhile you look astatine the changes that she’s brought successful — I’m not speaking specifically astir the San Francisco bureau but tech — it’s been caller talent. She has an antenna for what she thinks useful there. And 1 of the areas wherever that’s been very pronounced successful caller months is successful Washington, D.C. That has gone done respective cycles of changes.

She’s brought successful caller people, and that has had consequences. The marching orders are somewhat different erstwhile location is simply a person relationship to the halfway of the newsroom, wherever the decisions astir news tin beryllium made successful the discourse of a broader communicative that’s happening astir the world, alternatively than successful isolation astir a definite topic. So that’s the discourse for yesterday.

I’m not going to remark connected circumstantial individuals aliases Emma’s circumstantial plans. I’ll time off that to her. I’ve worked pinch rather a fewer of those people. As you know, I was a tech newsman myself. But overall, what Emma has focused on, and what the Journal and Dow Jones are focusing on, is going deeper and having much exclusivity, much “proprietary content.” Moments for illustration yesterday are perfectly ne'er easy.

I deliberation I spot a thesis of Dow Jones arsenic a company, and we’ll get to the large image successful a 2nd here. The thought is you’re going to springiness a bunch of group successful the business world an accusation edge, whether it’s pinch the Dow Jones Information Services, immoderate of the AI tools, aliases pinch The Wall Street Journal, which gets a bunch of scoops and tells group worldly they didn’t cognize before.

I’m conscionable looking astatine this broadly. I’m looking astatine Dow Jones arsenic portion of News Corp. I’m looking astatine News Corp’s financials from past month. Revenue astatine Dow Jones is up to $600 million. That’s up 3 percent. Your net are up 7 percent to $174 million. But the cuts are successful tech, which is dominating the world. I’m conscionable wondering astir that assets allocation because that’s the domiciled of the publisher.

Well, it is successful the consciousness that the newsroom has a budget, and we support value journalism. Frankly, we are truthful successful astatine this infinitesimal arsenic a institution that each of our investments are successful enhancing the value of our journalism, data, analytics, etc. Getting amended news, getting amended accusation is the mission, and we are investing successful that.

So, I conscionable want to correct 1 simplification that sometimes comes to the aboveground astatine moments for illustration this. I don’t deliberation you intended to do that, but I deliberation it’s important to make a distinction. It’s ace difficult erstwhile you spell done what happened yesterday and galore different times successful journalism. But this shift, for illustration immoderate different displacement that Emma has gone through, is not to eke retired much profit by having less resources. There is an wide ambiance wrong our company. You spot our earnings, revenue, and subscription guidelines growing.

We will put wherever there’s a bully business lawsuit to beryllium made. Tech and the transverse conception of tech pinch policy, politics, world trade, and nine is 1 of the apical priorities for Dow Jones, and 1 of the apical stories successful the world. So, don’t return a snapshot and say, “Okay, we’re going to extremity there.” This is simply a apical priority. Tech will permeate everything — it is permeating everything correct now. Look astatine Washington, D.C. aliases astatine the announcements from President Emmanuel Macron successful France. So, don’t return the snapshot, that is wherever I was headed. This is simply a infinitesimal successful time. We tin talk again successful a year, and our tech sum should beryllium broader, deeper and astir apt person a larger following.

I tally a tech publication — what is nominally a tech publication — and we are heavy invested successful covering policy. One of the lines we’ve ever used, a cliche even, is that, “The Verge tin screen everything because everything is now a tech story.”

That was a measurement 10 years agone of maintaining a wide focus, and now, it’s very real. Elon Musk is astatine the State of the Union. You tin spot the tech giants fighting bony and nail against the Digital Services Act successful the EU, and that is now a portion of American overseas policy. Do you spot that as, “Okay, possibly each of The Wall Street Journal is astir tech successful that way?” Is that getting much expansive for you?

There is simply a existent of tech that runs done each communicative astatine The Wall Street Journal. It runs done everything astatine Dow Jones successful 2 ways: arsenic a communicative and arsenic technology. There’s not a portion of The Wall Street Journal or Dow Jones wherever tech does not feature. Having group screen tech successful isolation is 1 measurement of covering this. In addition, tech is simply a halfway portion of galore different thumps and areas that we cover. Tech is simply a horizontal and a vertical astatine the aforesaid time.

We’ll travel backmost to the AI deals you’ve struck. I want to talk astir them expansively. Just successful this context, for illustration truthful galore publishers, you’ve struck a woody pinch OpenAI and different AI companies. Are those providing capable gross for you to put against successful the newsroom, aliases are you still successful wait-and-see mode pinch those deals?

I don’t deliberation we should tether our investments successful AI to immoderate individual AI deal. That’s not really I look astatine it. It’s not like, “Oh, AI brings successful this overmuch money, and now I tin put this overmuch successful AI.” You could, I guess, rationalize it that way.

Or the newsroom.

AI successful the newsroom aliases successful the newsroom [itself]. We person our finance priorities, and we’re pursuing a crippled scheme that we’ve been pursuing for a while. It meanders each erstwhile successful a while, but the extremity is beautiful clear. We intend connected increasing successful 3 ways. One is by going deeper, truthful investing successful the extent of our content, our data, and our analytics by increasing wider.

We do this by adding caller areas of expertise. Just past week, we announced our statement to acquire Oxford Analytica. Going heavy into geopolitics is an addition. But successful early investments, erstwhile it’s a portion of Dow Jones and The Wall Street Journal, we will astir apt put successful going deeper into that area of geopolitics.

Then, the 3rd activity is by connecting everything that we have. There should beryllium easier entree to the information that underlies everything astatine Dow Jones and everything that we do astatine The Wall Street Journal.

Now, to your question, investing successful the newsroom is simply a extremity successful itself. We are a successful, leading, subscription-driven news organization, and we turn by investing successful our journalism, not by shrinking our journalism. Sometimes there’s a enticement to beryllium successful austerity mode and to conscionable return distant successful bid to eke retired a profit. That’s not us, and that’s not really we’re increasing whatsoever.

I deliberation it’s much than a enticement for astir media businesses correct now. That is the reality of the situation, right? It costs much to make the accusation than astir group tin return connected it.

Yeah, but if your reply to that clip and clip again is, “Okay, I’ll trim successful bid to make ends meet,” past you’re not addressing thing astatine the base. You’re not addressing thing successful your model. You mightiness not beryllium addressing thing correctly successful the measurement you’re organized aliases wherever you’re focused. That, to me, was ne'er an acceptable method to turn aliases create awesome journalism. I understand that sometimes you person your backmost against the wall arsenic a institution successful immoderate industry. You whitethorn person to trim successful bid to make ends meet, but that’s not a strategy.

People get that wrong. I deliberation you’re perfectly right. That mightiness beryllium a prevailing tendency, but I don’t deliberation it should be. The prevailing attraction should beryllium astir making a quality successful the news and accusation that you offer. How do you make that distinctive? How do you adhd value? How do you let group to make decisions based connected that? How do you person group that they should admit the worth of the accusation that you offer?

People successful the past utilized to say, “You’re a subscription business. You’re The Wall Street Journal. You’re each astir business, and therefore, that doesn’t use to thing else.” I don’t deliberation that is true. I deliberation group admit the worth of a batch of different types of information. It doesn’t conscionable person to beryllium astir business. So, I really deliberation there’s a batch of opportunity successful shifting from this austerity mode to creation and building mode. Easier said than done, and sometimes, you person to measurement distant from things that conscionable aren’t working.

I deliberation that nickname of worth is very challenging. I understand why it happens successful the business community. I moreover understand why it happens for america successful the tech property because it’s often tradable. You tin salary a precocious complaint to The Wall Street Journal if you are a Wall Street trader, an investor, aliases immoderate different benignant of business master because the accusation has a clear worth that you tin usage to waste and acquisition upon to make a woody aliases an investment, to bargain aliases waste a stock.

I deliberation that accusation is not tradeable for the mean consumer. They conscionable unfastened TikTok. Maybe there’s immoderate influencer reference The Wall Street Journal to them for free. That elimination of scarcity, I think, has been the basal challenge. It was the situation erstwhile we went to societal media, the situation erstwhile we went to these societal video platforms. It feels for illustration the situation again for AI, right? The AI platforms are going to return each of the world’s accusation and wholly destruct moreover the scarcity of having to click. They’re conscionable going to show you what the models person publication connected the internet. Do you comprehend that arsenic existential a situation arsenic immoderate of your peers successful the media do?

I deliberation you’re perfectly correct successful that the barroom connected being unique pinch the content, news, aliases accusation that you create has gone measurement up. So, you person to beryllium much discerning wherever you focus. You inquire astir the existential threat astir AI, and that goes backmost to the nickname of value. I want to make judge that the manufacture — surely Dow Jones, The Wall Street Journal, and each of our publications — don’t autumn into a trap that is akin to 2 decades agone erstwhile each accusation had to beryllium free, group took scraps from hunt engines,. and past recovered retired complete clip that they’ve efficaciously lost, that we seeded that market. So, that’s why we are investing clip and resources correct now into making judge that ample players successful the AI abstraction admit that value.

Our push is to make judge that location is simply a commercialized statement astir that. And I deliberation that is the preferred result successful galore cases connected some sides of that fence. Where we can’t scope a commercialized agreement, wherever location are basal differences of opinion, we are prepared, successful immoderate cases, to say, “Then we’ll conflict it retired successful court.” So, we’ve walked some paths, pinch a penchant for the first.

I’m still answering your mobility arsenic to what’s existential present and is location an existential threat. You spun it guardant and we tin get done that, what it intends for the extremity personification and really consumers respond to that. But I deliberation first, we person to get the starting blocks. These are the companies that are providing generative AI, UX, and caller interactions for consumers. They person gotten to that constituent by utilizing information. We request an acknowledgement that the accusation that has value, surely our information, and that if you want to usage that accusation connected an ongoing basis, that immoderate of your generative AI-produced contented answers to queries are existent and reliable. You’ll person to salary america for entree if you worth that. That portion we cannot skip over. There’s a full different portion of this wherever we don’t yet precisely cognize really the personification is going to interact, but we spot the trending there. We person to get that portion right. We’re successful the mediate of that, aliases possibly we’re astatine the first portion of that still.

I’m going to inquire you 1 much very existential philosophical question, and I request to get backmost to having you explicate the institution —

Yeah. All my favourite topics.

There’s that line, that a dishonesty goes astir the world six times erstwhile the truth is putting connected shoes. It feels for illustration we mightiness beryllium describing a world wherever regular group are awash successful a oversea of free lies that travel to them connected societal media. The societal media companies are each giving up connected truth checks. Various billionaires opportunity immoderate they want connected podcasts pinch nary pushback. And what you are providing is simply a very costly root of truth, aliases hopefully what I americium providing is an affordable root of truth. That’s a large discrepancy, right?

I would opportunity we’re arsenic affordable arsenic a cup of java a day. Everyone drinks coffee. I deliberation it’s a story that entree to reliable accusation is unaffordable. It is an individual choice. I recognize it’s a difficult prime to make if you don’t person important disposable income, and that’s what you’re indicating, but I do judge that there’s a prime to beryllium made.

I understand why group would bargain The Wall Street Journal aliases immoderate of Dow Jones’ products, which we should travel to. But that’s the bigger picture, right? It’s convincing the adjacent user that they should salary for accusation arsenic opposed to picking a select bubble connected societal media. Whether that’s AI, societal media, aliases if it’s conscionable algorithms, that seems for illustration the situation the media faces.

The situation is to person personification that it’s to their use to put successful having entree to reliable information. Whether that’s for making decisions successful the realm of investments, technology, policy, aliases whether it’s hyperlocal and I really want to understand what’s going connected successful my community, immoderate of that I mightiness get from AI. But immoderate of that I mightiness not. I mightiness want to put a mini magnitude of money into knowing what’s happening successful my community. There’s immoderate examples of that popping up.

In consequence to this immense mobility that you’re asking, I deliberation we’ll spot invention successful publicity and a batch of productivity — already and successful years to travel — where, undeniably, there’s this flood of accusation of mixed quality.There’s also, undeniably, a immense request for reliable information. People are craving it much than ever before. In fact, the much sound location is, the much group are confused and the much they are asking, “Hey, show maine what this means.”

We spot this successful our data. We spot this erstwhile location are moments of clash successful society, successful business, aliases successful geopolitics pinch immoderate market. We spot a spike and group coming to america for free, but we besides spot a spike successful subscriptions. Demand for reliable information, I think, has gone up arsenic the excavation of unreliable aliases uncertain accusation has grown. Some of it mightiness beryllium reliable, immoderate of it mightiness not be.

I deliberation you formed that arsenic an existential risk. I tin formed that arsenic an opportunity. I for illustration to beryllium alert of the existential consequence and return the precautions there, but chiefly attraction connected the opportunity and gathering that demand. I don’t deliberation we person met that request by immoderate stretch. I deliberation there’s a immense opportunity for america and for different publications successful lying up to meet that demand. I deliberation that request will really only grow.

This is simply a bully spot to backmost up a little. We’ve talked a batch astir The Wall Street Journal. I deliberation group cognize astir The Wall Street Journal. I deliberation Decoder listeners besides astir apt cognize astir Rupert Murdoch and News Corp, which is the genitor institution of The Wall Street Journal. Describe really each of that fits together successful your domiciled arsenic CEO of Dow Jones.

In its astir simplified form, I deliberation of Dow Jones arsenic a Rubik’s Cube, and wrong is each of our premium journalism, exclusives, aliases explanations of what’s happening correct now. There’s our proprietary information that we person connected galore different sectors successful the world economy. There’s Factiva pinch thousands and thousands of sources from astir the world sitting wrong that Rubik’s Cube.

Each tile connected that Rubik’s Cube is simply a measurement to get retired of Dow Jones what is important and applicable to you. Maybe I want a mates of different tiles aliases possibly I want the full thing, but that’s fundamentally a measurement of reasoning astir really we run and how, ultimately, we’re organized. AI is really helping a awesome woody pinch this and it’s accelerating pinch generative AI. AI and automation has been pinch Dow Jones for a long, agelong time.

Let’s past make that a small spot much complex. If 1 of those tiles is astir enslaved trading, I ought to beryllium capable to get each information: premium accusation and unrecorded information, but besides analytics and forecasting to thief maine successful my job. We’ll get to AI successful a moment, but the cards I was dealt erstwhile I took complete almost 5 years agone arsenic CEO was to look astatine Dow Jones arsenic a level of verticals.

You’ve sewage business news, which is some a horizontal and a vertical, but that’s The Wall Street Journal, arsenic you say. It needs nary immense mentation there. There’s wealthiness and investing, wherever we person Barron’s, MarketWatch, Financial News, which is simply a title successful the U.K., and Private Equity News. We’ve sewage a compliance limb that has information connected compliance. It helps companies discern, “Should I do business pinch this personification aliases not? Are they connected a sanctions database aliases not?” We’ve since added an power limb and wrong that, commodities and petrochemicals. We’ve added a activity arm, organically, looking astatine what it takes to beryllium a modern leader.

Each of these verticals, if you will, is successful erstwhile it does 4 things. You person to person starring news successful that peculiar vertical, successful that peculiar area of concentration. So prime your industry. Unless you person that, you’re not relevant. Second, you person to person proprietary data. Some of that tin travel retired of the news, immoderate of it you person to build, immoderate of it you person to buy, and we’ve done that. If you person those 2 things, you tin do due analytics. AI helps pinch that to immoderate degree. If you waste products that tin do forecasting and analytics, that’s wherever the worth keeps going up. Then, the 4th facet is convening powerfulness — that is bringing group successful that industry, successful that sector, successful that vertical together.

If you person those four, you really get a mini-network effect wrong that industry. We’ve seen that happen, and it happened by design. We’ve executed this pinch our manager, Joel Lange, who runs our consequence and compliance business. If you person each those 4 parts, past you spot the leaders successful that manufacture travel together. Take consequence and compliance. You spot compliance officers coming together and our [Chief Compliance Officer Council] astatine Davos and successful different places. So, now you person thought leaders there.

Well, the procurement officers who bargain our information products see, “Oh, yeah, the group that are starring my section aliases starring my institution are talking connected a Dow Jones level astir these large themes.” So it anchors Dow Jones much deeply, whether that’s conscionable an study and anecdotal aliases whether that really translates into business. Often it translates into business. That has the aforesaid effect connected our analytical products.

Then if you adhd news to that consequence vertical — we person mentioned internally that we will person a consequence diary — you will person consequence manufacture folks, compliance officers and the like, pat into that news merchandise to really commencement their workday and understand what’s happening. Now, we are coming successful your workflow successful that manufacture extremity to end. By the way, since we’re The Wall Street Journal, we’re astir apt besides still pinch you successful different measurement erstwhile you spell home.

So that’s the position of the institution and our operating model. Build verticals that person these 4 parts astatine a minimum. Go deeper and make that exclusive. This is why what Emma is doing successful the The Wall Street Journal newsroom really matters. More exclusives and much unique publicity helps pinch the news obviously.

We’ve built, bought, and created much proprietary data. We’ve spent good successful excess of $1 cardinal connected getting companies that are specialized successful that added to our roster. We’re doing much analytics and moreover a small spot of consulting. We’re ne'er going to beryllium a consulting company, but that’s an outflow of analytics. Then,there’s convening power. I deliberation for a agelong time, the media benignant of misread that arsenic conscionable events, but it’s thing acold bigger than that. I deliberation it’s a subscription business.It’s a recurring gross business, it should be. It doesn’t mean that you can’t person sponsorship for it, but it is basal to anchoring the decision-makers of a definite manufacture successful your platform.

When we person each 4 parts, we telephone it a afloat stack. So we’ve sewage a afloat stack successful risk. We’re building a afloat stack successful power and subsets of energy, truthful we’re going deeper there. And it’s a scalable exemplary for the early because we now understand really to build these verticals. Either we tin excavation The Wall Street Journal for caller verticals because we spot what group gravitate to and wherever we person the expertise, and past build connected that. We tin inorganically adhd arsenic well, aliases we tin organically commencement extracurricular The Wall Street Journal newsroom.

So going deeper, going wider, and past connecting everything. Let’s spell backmost to the Rubik’s Cube, if you want to bargain that full Rubik’s Cube, we will besides make that imaginable for you. So we’re making judge that these magnificent information pools are going to beryllium available. Some of this is, of course, still successful the useful but going to beryllium disposable to our journalists truthful that they tin do exclusive activity pinch it.

You’re describing Dow Jones arsenic thing that makes really high-quality, rigorous accusation crossed newspapers, magazines, and information products and that sits wrong News Corp. How often do you bent retired pinch [Founder] Rupert Murdoch?

I wouldn’t put it successful the class of hanging retired whatsoever. There’s healthy, friends interaction. He’s president emeritus, he’s built the caricature connected the side. He’s built tremendous media occurrence stories complete time. And so, from a business constituent of view, location was a batch to study from him, surely successful my early days, like, “How do you create businesses?” But from News Corp, there’s been thing but support for our maturation story.

So I’m very thankful for that. It’s Rupert, it’s [Chair] Lachlan [Murdoch], and besides [CEO] Robert Thompson, that’s a full apparatus. But we besides person entree to superior arsenic Dow Jones. Five years ago, we hadn’t done an acquisition for good complete a decade. Now we’ve done billions successful acquisitions. That support is simply a ballot of assurance for the guidance that we’re taking, for the strategy that I outlined to you: increasing deeper, increasing wider, connecting things. There’s besides a heavy respect for the independency of The Wall Street Journal and the worth that comes pinch that. I’ve seen that consistently applied. So yeah, that’s my reply to your hangout question.

Rupert Murdoch plays connected some sides of the accusation crisis. You tin watch his different properties create immoderate reality is politically expedient for Donald Trump. And past I spot The Wall Street Journal rigorously screen the effect of tariffs each the measurement down to the sentiment pages, which sometimes opportunity the tariffs are bad.

Oh no, the sentiment pages don’t conscionable opportunity tariffs are bad. Prime Minister of Canada Justin Trudeau said successful a property conference — I’m paraphrasing present — “I don’t often quote The Wall Street Journal, but they said that this waste and acquisition warfare is the stupidest waste and acquisition warfare successful history.” Something on those lines. We don’t clasp back. Our sentiment pages don’t clasp back, and their appraisal is based connected well-established principles of free markets and free people. The independency to make that judgement is halfway to who we are. For my part, I’m focused connected the Dow Jones part, of making judge that sings.

But do you spot that contradiction? Do you deliberation your squad sees that contradiction, that you’re trying to waste really high-quality accusation while different portion of the building that has the aforesaid ownership is contributing to an accusation crisis?

Listen, I can’t remark because of the shared ownership structure. I’m not going to remark connected my colleagues astatine Fox. We had protesters extracurricular successful Fox Square, and group are protesting while the reporters astatine The Wall Street Journal and Dow Jones are doing their jobs. So, location is an consciousness of the cognition of Fox and what we’re focused on. I deliberation there’s besides a awesome consciousness amongst our staff, and has been for complete 15 years, that those 2 things are abstracted — without specifically commenting connected really you qualify that, because I americium conscionable not going to get into that.

That makes sense. I want to inquire the past Decoder question, and I want to extremity by talking astir AI astatine length. You’ve had to make a batch of decisions. You’ve changed the measurement the institution useful a lot. You evidently person a measurement of reasoning astir the institution that’s very specific. Although I will opportunity that Rubik’s Cubes are meant to beryllium solved. I deliberation you want them to remix the cube, not lick it. But what’s your model there? How do you make decisions?

I return successful accusation a lot. I for illustration to be, astir apt to a fault, acquainted pinch the facts connected the ground, truthful I americium very consultative, return successful expertise, and absorb. So, I consciousness for illustration I person a capable level of mastery to past make a decision. So that’s 1 part. I’m very inquisitive. The spot of bully journalists is that they cognize really to inquire questions, and they’re driven by curiosity. As a company, we’re driven by curiosity. As an executive, I’m driven by curiosity. I want to fig retired really things interact, to understand the nuances. That’s for my part.

I also, astatine the aforesaid time, judge successful letting managers negociate aliases creators create, and making judge that what I’m doing is to thief make those managers aliases those creators successful. It depends connected wherever we’re focused. If we’re focused connected thing that is important for the full company, I will beryllium informed and I will make the determination by consulting my guidance team.

Within the model of the strategy that I’ve outlined and the intricacies of that, I americium a patient believer successful letting the managers make decisions. So, I person a very level building wherever location is simply a batch of autonomy to, wrong that framework, make decisions. I deliberation that allows group to move faster and allows the institution to move faster. It allows america to research without going done a cardinal clearinghouse constantly. So, I want both. On the 1 hand, I want the expertise truthful I’m informed. There’s a limit to that because you can’t do that erstwhile you are reasoning astir everything’s macro issues. I person to beryllium judicious successful really I do that, wherever I attraction that thirst. On the different hand, we person that level building and empower people.

Let’s use that model to AI. I deliberation it’s useful to person the model wherever we talk astir this adjacent group of large shifts because that’s a batch of decisions. You mentioned Factiva earlier. That’s a information platform. You’re promising immoderate generative AI devices there. You want to connection much of those devices to your customers crossed the board. You’ve made immoderate deals pinch OpenAI, but astatine the aforesaid time, you’re suing Perplexity.

You deliberation it’s taking accusation distant without compensating you. You made a woody pinch OpenAI astatine immoderate rate, we tin talk astir whether that complaint is enough. And past you’re offering the devices to the users. What is the style of the AI opportunity to you? When you look astatine that full set, the number 1 mobility to maine is, “How large of a business is this really?” Because I don’t cognize if anyone’s making much money from AI than they’re spending connected building the devices correct now.

We are successful a very, very early shape successful that, truthful it’s difficult to say. What I tin opportunity is that connected the merchandise side, immoderate of our products outperform versus what we had planned for them. We person a merchandise successful our consequence business called Integrity Check. It’s much of a self-serve exemplary wherever you don’t person to hold for Dow Jones to get backmost to you and do its computation — utilizing AI ourselves but retired of the position of the customer. Instead, we’re having the customer do immoderate basal investigation connected consequence and compliance themselves, assessing who they tin do business with, and getting that to an 80 percent reliability. From there, they usage that arsenic a springboard to say, “Now, pinch the remaining 20 percent, I request thief from the company.”

That merchandise is reasonably young, and that’s outperforming expectations. On the whole, I deliberation this will beryllium a nett positive, but we’ve sewage to unpack what we’re talking astir first. We’ve sewage to get the foundational elements of this right. If we don’t person proprietary accusation that is genuinely proprietary, past we’re going to suffer this game. You spot america prosecute successful building products, building a marketplace pinch Factiva, and deploying devices internally, but each of that has to hap successful tandem pinch solving that foundational question.

Last summer, the woody pinch OpenAI, the reporting was that it’s worthy astir $250 million. Is that correct?

That’s The Wall Street Journal’s side, truthful I judge them. I had Nicholas Thompson, the CEO of The Atlantic on the show a fewer months ago. He told maine 1 of the reasons that he made a woody pinch OpenAI was to group the marketplace rate, which is useful for fair-use litigation and for different kinds of deals. Do you deliberation $250 cardinal is capable of a complaint to group the market?

I’m not going to talk astir circumstantial amounts, but you’ve sewage to inquire what the magnitude is for. What I americium personally little willing successful is simply a azygous magnitude and much successful an operating exemplary and a business exemplary for really you do business complete a agelong play of time. How does that operate? When accusation is used, is the worth of that accusation recognized on the way, and is location a system that helps successful realizing that valuation?

Set the dollars aside, wrong of the OpenAI deal, what are the signals you’re looking for that bespeak whether the woody was a occurrence aliases a failure?

Simply because of the measurement we’ve group up that deal. I’m not going to talk specifically astir it. That was a ace bully effort because I almost bit.

I’m going to effort it again, don’t worry.

I’m judge you will. I tin talk much broadly. How tin you show the generative AI devices that you’re deploying aliases the models that you’re deploying wrong your ain business are successful? That’s by usage. Is it generating gross connected a accordant basis? Is it conscionable a blurb? Like, “ It’s a novelty factor, and now we move on?” We’re beautiful early successful that process, truthful I don’t cognize yet what’s a caput clone and what’s real. Some of the products, I tin tell, are real. Some of it requires a displacement successful personification acquisition and personification requirements. This is going to person to beryllium array stakes, for illustration offering a UX that is built astir generative AI because the customer expects that. So, you’re getting astatine the trickiness of establishing the worth writ large.

But overall, I deliberation of generative AI arsenic an accelerant for the strategy that we have. It will let america to spell deeper successful our verticals faster and much efficiently, and successful ways that we couldn’t moreover imagine. We’ve each talked astir the wonders of generative AI, successful doing investigation successful ways that we couldn’t do before, quality and otherwise. Within Dow Jones, we talk astir authentic intelligence. That’s the operation of generative AI and quality guidance. We find that that’s a saccharine spot for definite B2B products that we’re building.

It’s accelerating, going deeper. It will accelerate going wider, i.e., scaling our vertical strategy because we tin guidelines up verticals overmuch faster. If it’s a geographic vertical, we tin now say, “All right, we tin motorboat successful this language, and it’s truthful reliable and it’s a batch cheaper.” And past connecting everything, generative AI is simply a monolithic accelerant because now pinch a bladed furniture connected top, we tin extract information from each these different information pools.

Do the devices activity good capable for you to spot it?

On a case-by-case basis, erstwhile it’s very circumstantial and we are answering a mobility from a customer. If it’s a co-creation wherever we are solving a definite problem and we person very constrictive parameters, past I deliberation it works. When you spell wide, you get a wide answer. So, our strategy is built astir being circumstantial and being focused connected verticals. AI fits nicely pinch that, and successful fact, it allows america to spell overmuch deeper, beryllium overmuch much specific, and beryllium much discerning. Under each vertical, you tin create sub-verticals utilizing a overmuch larger information pool.

You’re describing thing that happens wrong Dow Jones and its products. More broadly, News Corp has been beautiful harsh astir platforms and work. News Corp CEO Robert Thompson is famously captious of Google because the institution was down the laws successful Australia that require platforms to salary publishers for linking. AI represents that opportunity arsenic well, aliases that situation arsenic well. Instead of utilizing your tools, personification mightiness usage a ChatGPT aliases a Google Gemini, and conscionable person an answer. Do you deliberation that these deals you’re making are hedges against that outcome? Are they investments successful that outcome?

I’ll conscionable springiness the illustration of the millennial integer media startup boom, which was predicated connected “we will conscionable beryllium the astir viral point connected Facebook, and Facebook will salary america that money.” That evidently did not cookware out. I deliberation group are very wary of making that aforesaid correction pinch AI. But you person 1 of these deals.

This is why I said astatine the very commencement that I spot those deals successful a abstracted category. It’s foundational, it’s astir principles. The money to beryllium made successful AI, it’s really connected america to make sure–

So it’s connected your proprietary tools?

It’s connected america that what our generative AI spits retired is applicable to our customer successful a measurement that immoderate different supplier pinch possibly a much wide connection is not. We person to make judge that erstwhile we harvester our proprietary journalism, our proprietary data, and our convening powerfulness pinch generative AI and LLMs, that the result to a query is A, reliable, and B, thing that you can’t find location other aliases beryllium astatine the standard of wherever you tin find it location other wrong that vertical. I deliberation there’s a favoritism betwixt establishing the principles and getting worth for that, getting guardant worth if you are being used. Then, location is simply a abstracted class of ratio devices that we usage successful the company.

Yet, there’s different class wherever we say, “Here’s wherever we build products that person to reply a definite mobility that exists successful the marketplace successful immoderate industry.” We’re going to springiness a superior answer, and you’re going to request that reply successful bid to beryllium much successful than the adjacent personification moving connected solving that problem successful a definite industry. So, if that’s astir forecasting power prices, we want to beryllium the astir reliable connected that. We want to beryllium the starring sound connected what’s happening successful the chemic industry, and generative AI should beryllium 1 measurement successful which you get that retired of us, but successful a proprietary sense.

That should be, hopefully, very different from going to immoderate chatbot and asking that aforesaid question. Maybe you get an approximation, but it mightiness not beryllium arsenic reliable. Hopefully, there’ll beryllium capable proprietary information successful our reply that will make that title uneven to our advantage. That I deliberation is the task. I consciousness very powerfully that we cannot spell into this caller era pinch a position of, “Well, this is what these companies person to do for us.” We person to work together connected the principles and the value, but past it’s really up to america to create superb products and answers to analyzable questions successful a very analyzable world, to recognize the worth that these caller devices offer. Both those things person to exist.

I’ve talked to a batch of publishers and media CEOs complete the past respective years astir wherever the postulation comes from, really the payments work, wherever the worth is going. Setting speech AI for a minute, it feels for illustration the atomic mobility everyone is asking is if Google is conscionable indexing our sites and taking the data, yet we will person to artifact Google successful a measurement that galore publishers were comfortable utilizing their robots.txt record to artifact OpenAI and different crawlers. Have you ever considered going that far?

I’m not going to speak specifically to Google. We’re partners and we person tons of things that we do together. There’s besides things that we disagree on.

Absolutely. This is not connected my radar successful the measurement that you definitive that, but that’s the short reply to that. Taking your mobility successful a different way, we person to stress owned-and-operated. We person to make judge that being successful our world — successful our universe, successful an individual vertical, successful 1 of our broader products, aliases successful the full Rubik’s Cube — you person an acquisition that you cannot person location else. That’s connected us. How acold do you go? It’s astir putting a wall astir that. Yeah, we’ll spot complete time.

You are successful litigation against Perplexity. It’s taken immoderate data. I’m guessing by the truth that the suit was filed, you didn’t for illustration that. If you triumph that case, The New York Times Company wins its case against OpenAI, or, I don’t know, Sheryl Crow wins her case, that will upend the marketplace arsenic we understand it. There will beryllium immoderate caller fair-use precedent that is created. How does that alteration really you deliberation astir building and deploying your ain AI tools?

Again, I put this successful a abstracted box. We’ve sewage to build our–

Well wait, fto maine situation you connected that for 1 second, conscionable to get it into the correct framework. Right now, it feels for illustration the full manufacture is conscionable assuming that, triumph aliases suffer successful these cases, the money will beryllium sorted retired and branded to build astatine the aforesaid complaint we’ve been building. Maybe the rates spell up, and it’s conscionable much costly to do what OpenAI is doing because it has to salary each the singer-songwriters successful the world. It besides seems to maine that potentially, the rates are truthful precocious that the full building of the manufacture changes.

The industry, successful this case, is AI.

The AI manufacture changes. Suddenly, the compliance costs of making judge each of our information is licensed earlier we provender it into the exemplary for training skyrockets because the penalties are precocious nether copyright law. That feels for illustration an under-considered risk. These lawsuits are conscionable going to play retired and thing will happen.

The measurement that I deliberation Google was capable to rotation complete the Viacom suit erstwhile YouTube started aliases the Google Books suit was because it was benignant of the plucky upstart. The worth of those devices was truthful precocious that it sewage to triumph a bunch of lawsuits. I don’t deliberation the AI companies consciousness for illustration plucky upstarts. I don’t deliberation that nationalist sentiment is pinch a bunch of elephantine tech institution billionaires anymore. It feels for illustration those lawsuits mightiness spell the different way. At that point, immoderate of the devices you are utilizing to build pinch aliases immoderate of the partners you have, their costs structures mightiness alteration truthful dramatically–

That that is going to extremity america from that development.

That everyone’s strategy has to change. I’m conscionable wondering really overmuch you’re considering that.

I spot wherever you’re going pinch it. It’s a small spot of the unsighted man and the elephant. There are different patches of adjacent usage that different ineligible cases are pursuing. One lawsuit mightiness reverberate, but it’s not going to needfully beryllium absolute. I dislike to opportunity this arsenic an reply to immoderate question, but it’s a large hold and see.

At the moment, I person to spell connected the presumption that arsenic a technology, generative AI is coming successful my world, is going to beryllium coming moreover more, and is going to beryllium an anticipation from consumers, whether they’re firm aliases consumers retired successful the wild. So, we cannot proceed to build and past deliberation astatine the aforesaid clip astir really it whitethorn each conscionable disappear. And by the way, we mightiness beryllium the culprit because we’re applying that, which is... it’s an absorbing scenario. I don’t deliberation it will play retired that way.

But you’re 1 of the litigants. That’s what I mean. It’s interesting.

But I don’t cognize that it will beryllium debilitating. I don’t deliberation that the commercialized statement we person pinch OpenAI — pinch the worth of which I can’t opportunity but you cited — has stopped it from developing. I judge successful a marketplace mechanism, and I deliberation that’s wherever we will extremity up, that location will beryllium a gravitation to that alternatively than stopping the manufacture successful its tracks.

OpenAI famously has not made $1 successful profit. It has to build a business that’s valuable capable to support these deals.

Yeah, but Amazon didn’t for a agelong clip either.

I consciousness for illustration we’ve brought up Jeff Bezos successful a assortment of ways connected this episode. [Laughs] I’m very funny to spot really your suit plays retired pinch Perplexity and really those businesses develop. We’ll person to person you backmost arsenic that progresses. There’s thing location that feels almost invisible. You’re right, the unsighted man and the elephant. It’s there, it’s very big, and I deliberation this adjacent year, we’ll spot really it shapes the business.

I want to extremity by talking astir property freedom. It’s thing you attraction astir a lot, you’ve talked astir it a lot. You’re a patient of The Wall Street Journal. You famously had Evan Gershkovich detained successful Russia successful March 2023. You worked very difficult crossed a number of administrations to bring him back. This is simply a very challenging clip for property freedom, some overseas and it feels for illustration successful the United States. What’s your position of the scenery correct now?

We unrecorded successful a clip of tremendous change, of polarization, and that makes covering the news trickier than ever before. It also, I think, increases the worth and the publication that we bring to nine arsenic a free press. With each the changes and challenges that we’re seeing, including against the media, this is simply a clip that immoderate journalist should beryllium made for. If your bosom is successful explaining complexity to the world, past there’s ne'er been a clip erstwhile we’ve had this to grapple with.

On the 1 hand, we tin connection tremendous value, and connected the different hand, it’s go a batch harder to do that. The statistic astir the world don’t lie. There are good complete 300 group who were killed past twelvemonth doing journalism, and group being put successful prison. There is simply a harsh speech successful nine that makes it, nether galore circumstances, little comfortable to spell aft a story. Sometimes I measurement whether we did a communicative good by really overmuch I sewage successful position of complaints from the near and the correct aft definite stories. So, the somesthesia is high.

Let maine push you connected that too. That’s an aged chestnut successful journalism, right? If everyone’s unhappy, you’re doing your occupation right.

It’s besides my regular existence, honestly. So, it’s a very young chestnut for me. It’s location each day, but yes, I cognize wherever you want to go.

This is simply a beautiful asymmetric accusation scenery correct now. One broadside is vastly much consenting to lie. One broadside is vastly much consenting to moreover alteration the data. The Trump management is making sound that it’ll return authorities spending retired of GDP, which would dramatically alteration almost everything The Wall Street Journal does, right?

At the astir basal level, we mightiness not beryllium capable to spot authorities information anymore. That’s a threat to property freedom, and it will rotation it arsenic a bully thing. Elon Musk is retired location trying to rotation this arsenic a bully thing. You don’t spot the near playing that benignant of crippled pinch the information to metaphysically create governmental outcomes. There’s not arsenic overmuch trying to tweet things into reality that Elon is doing.

I’m not going to left-right things successful this conversation. What I tin opportunity is really you respond to an accusation ecosystem, aliases possibly successful an asymmetrical mode —

There’s a very clear reply to that. It’s not an easy answer, but the first reply is instrumentality to your principles. In our case, we judge successful reporting the facts successful the newsroom. We judge successful free markets and free group connected the sentiment side. You instrumentality to that and you do not fto go. And you double down connected that. That’s our publication to the accusation ecosystem, and we’re going to do much of that.

That’s a demand-driven point arsenic well, but we’re talking astir property freedom. This is an reply to that. If you commencement making concessions successful your reporting and omitting facts that you cognize to beryllium existent aliases commencement self-censoring, past that crippled is lost.

Second, you’ve sewage to support a cool head. We unrecorded successful an situation wherever taunting and provocation is the norm. You tin return that bait aliases you cannot. Then, you person to then, successful my view, not beryllium panic successful consequence to each small provocation that mightiness exist. In fact, you mightiness get much respect if you do not respond to each provocation.

Then, you person to admit the moments erstwhile principles are astatine stake, erstwhile you person to conflict aliases definitive your disagreement. So, support connected doing what you’re doing. Do moreover much of it, successful our case. Create reliable information. It’s going to beryllium bully for society, it’s going to beryllium bully for you arsenic an organization. Keep a cool caput and instrumentality to your principles.

That past portion is besides non-negotiable. All these three, successful fact, are non-negotiable. You’ve sewage to instrumentality to your principles. If you commencement shifting and making definite concessions astatine the incorrect moment, location will beryllium a very precocious value to salary for that.

You person colleagues successful akin positions crossed the media that are making concessions. ABC settled its case pinch the Trump administration. Looks for illustration CBS mightiness settee the 60 Minutes case because the threat of the Skydance woody being blocked hangs complete it successful immoderate way. Are you saying you would not make those concessions? Are you saying they should not?

I americium not saying either 1 of those because I’m not commenting connected their individual situations. I conscionable deliberation that location are moments where, arsenic an organization, you’re going to person to evaluate. The AP conscionable went done this. Is this a infinitesimal wherever I speak retired and wherever I instrumentality to my guns aliases not? I deliberation successful those moments, you amended take carefully. You amended person a clear position of your principles, understand what you really guidelines for, and understand the ramifications. People will constituent backmost to definite moments, and you want to make judge that you were connected the correct side.

I’m going to inquire you this much straight because I deliberation I conscionable request to perceive it therapeutically, but I deliberation your reporters astir apt request to perceive it too. If the unit comes to you from the Trump administration, are you saying that you’ll conflict erstwhile it feels for illustration a batch of different large media companies are choosing to cave?

The mobility is conscionable to load it successful and make it very specific. We person fought for our principles for decades. We person stood up for our reporting for decades. We person a ineligible squad that is incredibly strong, that has fought for property state and for our publicity again and again. If we make a mistake, we correct it. We ain up to that. That is perfectly portion of the worth structure. We guidelines up for principles, period.

What happens if the generative AI makes a mistake?

It depends connected what correction it is. Actually, successful building and co-creating immoderate of these products that reply very constrictive questions, we were sometimes amazed astatine mistakes that snuck in. We want to make judge we don’t merchandise products without having screened for that. But you’re going to person to correct.

Do you deliberation that an accusation situation wherever immoderate of the devices and the institutions are little reliable, aliases possibly moreover openly dispute to the press, is thing you will beryllium capable to floor plan arsenic Dow Jones alone? Or do you deliberation that’s an industry-wide effort? Because it does not consciousness for illustration there’s a batch of coordination crossed the manufacture correct now.

I deliberation the manufacture should enarthrosis a batch of this together successful a loosely formed conjugation aliases done solidarity. I’m focused connected Dow Jones’ success, but I surely stock our findings pinch colleagues each the time, and there’s a very progressive speech amongst media leaders that A, I want to foster and B, I want to participate in. If you look astatine very difficult moments for illustration the Evan lawsuit aliases getting group retired of Afghanistan during the U.S. forces’ accelerated withdrawal, we worked very, very intimately together. There’s very adjacent contacts among a batch of those leaders. I deliberation that’s a patient thing, and I would for illustration to spot much of it.

Almar, you’ve fixed america truthful overmuch time. Tell america what’s adjacent for Dow Jones.

Well, it’s tomorrow’s news, truthful I want you to tune in. Definitely travel to The Wall Street Journal each day. For us, you’ll spot america attraction connected world rebalancing. We’re rebalancing our portfolio to make judge that we are arsenic beardown extracurricular the borders of the U.S. arsenic we are here. We’re focused connected video, focused connected deeper information products. Overall, we will proceed to beryllium focused connected what we person been focused connected for the entirety of our existence, and that’s providing reliable information.

Amazing. Thank you truthful overmuch for being connected Decoder.

Thank you truthful overmuch for having me.

Questions aliases comments astir this episode? Hit america up astatine [email protected]. We really do publication each email!